How much is too much (anchor and chain)

[Captain Alfredo]

One other thing, definitely a Fortress for the Bay.

[eyschulman]

Originally Posted by thinwater

a. Don't go +1. Get the size they recommend for storms. The people suggesting sizes on this forum already took all of that that into account. Same with chain. The safety factor is already in there.


b. No, a windlass only fits one size and one chain style.


c. No, you probably don't need a windlass. Remember, you break the anchor out by cleating the line and letting the boat do it, so you are only lifting the weight of the anchor + chain in about 10-15 feet of water.


d. Don't pretend that dumping and anchor off the stern will stop you. That is pure myth. A Fortress may just plane, most anchors will just skid at any speed, and you probably don't have the room. Imagine the momentum you are asking the anchor to arrest. A MUCH better plan is usually to use the momentum you have, cut a quick U-turn (which will slow the boat), and calmly lower the anchor once the boat has coasted into a safe windward position. I've used this method several times and it works.


The point is that you can either look at momentum as a bad thing, or you can look at it as a perishable asset.


Also, engine failures are really quite rare IF:
1. warm-up the engine for 10 minutes before you need it.
2. test reverse before you need it.
3. make certain all lines are on deck.



I've had a number of stalls because I did not warm it up. Once I forgot to open the fuel valve after a filter change. Wound up a dock line once. In 35 years, I can't remember a marina failure with a well-warmed up engine.

Not to nit pick but warming up a diesel engine or gas engine at idle is against modern knowledge and advise from most if not all manufactures. If your motor needs that much time before it will not stall there is something seriously wrong with it or your drive train. If it is ancient maybe it gets a pass on this. Most advise is start up avoid idle and go slow until warm. Long ide is bad for motor and environment. A motor that is idled a lot may be prone to stall because its innards are all bogged with unburnt fuel residue.

[roland stockham]

Bear in mind future plans. Ground tackle is expensive and what you have is good stuff for offshore cruising going north or south. If this may be on the cards for the future it may be worth putting the heavy stuff in store rather than selling it. The other point is that chain is also very good at resisting abrasion. I always worry that a short chain length may leave the rope/chain junction dragging across the bottom if the boat swings so if you anticipate keeping the boat on the hook a lot you may want to consider longer or even all chain rode. I like all chain road if a boat is left at anchor overnight with nobody aboard. If this sound like the way to go you can use lighter chain. When choosing ground tackle you should consider the anchor and rode as a piece, the anchor is the hook and the weight of the chain holds it in place. You should also consider the boats windage and how it rides at anchor. A light boat with high topsides may take twice as much holding as a heavy boat that sits low in the water but does not range around (like yours). The final factor is crowds, if you are going to need to anchor in crowded places on a short scope you want short heavy chain and a heavy anchor.
On 'next gen' anchors, yes it seams the give better grip for a lighter weigh and set more easily. On the down side they are super expensive! Also when you look at the anchor and rode together the chain is several times the weight of the anchor so the overall saving is not that significant. On you current set up you have 35lb of anchor but 400llb of chain! That sounds a lot but then consider you have probably 10-11,000lb loaded wt in the boat. If that is drifting back at even a 1/4kn that is a lot of momentum (actually it is 1408lb). If the chain is light the boat will easily lift it and then snub. Apart from being uncomfortable snubbing is what pulls anchors out and damages rollers. Although things like pull tests are valid and interesting it is only half the story, thats why you see so many different opinions on here.
Personally I would never be happy carrying less that a 35lb anchor and 25m chain on any cruising boat except on a lake.
Final point is chain stowage. The reason all this debate about lightweight ground tackle came about is because many boats are now built with nowhere to stow the ground tackle. Used to be the anchor stowed in bits by the mast and chain went under the floor in the sail locker or was run back to the mast foot. If all you have is a little bow locker it is in the worst possible place and usually to small. If you put too much weight in it it alters the balance, stops the bow lifting to the waves. None of these apply here, you have a lovely little solidly built and sensibly designed cruiser that I would happily take anywhere. Although you do have a bow locker it goes right down to waterline and it is supported by a fairly deep forefoot. I really don't think you will notice the difference if you cut down the chain wt. I would however consider stowing the spare anchor on the cabin top or below and maybe moving the other anchor back on a long trip. That is a fair bit of weight out on the bowsprit and can be in the way for sail handling.

[TrentePieds]

Army:

Quote: "My boat can't do u-turns..."

Wot??? A Shannon 28 can't do U-turns??? Maybe it's the helmsman who can't :-)?

TrentePieds and the Shannon are of almost identical displacements, tho' TP has a fin-keel while the Shannon doesn't quite know what it has. TP is wheel-steered, and I suspect that your Shannon may be too, though with a transom hung rudder there is a chance that she is tiller-steered as any 30-footer ought to be. TP is a sloop whereas the Shannon is a cutter. TP has roller furling Headsail and mast-furling Main. Given that the Shannon is a forty-year old design you may be among the blessed ones that still have hank-on sails :-)

These sorts of things affect how you come to anchor. We can delve further into that if you like :-) Suffice to say that with tiller steering and hank-on sails it is immeasurably easier than it is with wheel and roller furls

TP is a high freeboard + pilot house hull with lotsa windage aggravated by the roller furls. In consequence she's a pain when anchored over the bows. She hunts all over the place when so anchored, so to preclude strong language from anchorage mates I set the hook over the bows according to age-old SOPs, then shift the rode to a cleat on the quarter. That settles her, and ventilates her at the same time via the companionway.

I happen to have 40 feet of 5/16 chain spliced to 200 feet of nylon. In our bottomless waters (Salish Sea) with the occasional sandy-bottomed, reachable-bottomed bay and a 16 foot tidal range, that is JUST enuff for the classic 7x scope on a windy night. The “bower”hook (the one on the bow) is a 35lb Bruce. It hasn't yet failed me. The “sheet” anchor (the “utility” anchor) is a 20 lb Fortress that's handy mainly for taking ashore and wrapping around a handy tree when the anchorage is crowded, as many of them are.

So my opinion is that there is no need for your to spend money on DIFFERENT ground tackle. What you have is perfectly adequate for the sort of sailing you say you intend to do.

But you DO have to learn to deploy it to best advantage :-)!

Cheers

TP

[Captain Alfredo]

Although I agree a longer chain is better regarding chafe on the bottom. No boat should ever be anchored in a wind without a line snubber to absorb the shock load of the chain on the boat. Once pulled tight by the wind, the weight of the chain will do little to keep the anchor set. At that point it is all about the bottom, the proper anchor and scope.

[gjordan]

Armysailor, for the kind of sailing that you are doing, you really dont need to do much. My OPINION, (and everything on this thread is OPINION), would be to not let other people spend your money for you. Put the Bruce in the bilge or lazzeret and put the shorter piece of chain with the longer nylon onto the plow and be happy. If you want to spend a bit on making things even lighter, then buy a 50 foot hunk of 1/4 high test chain for the plow and life will be easier. You mention Danforths, I think a light Danforth with a small length of chain and 1/2 inch line as a carry out anchor would be a good thing to have available in a reachable spot, but not on the ends of the boat. With a little re-arranging you have more than ample gear. Good Sailing, _____Grant.

[gjordan]

OOPs, Treintpeds beat me to it. Sail more and worry less. ____Grant.

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by ArmySailor

Thinwater, thank you for that reply. My thoughts on yours,

a. Check. The safety factor is already baked in. Perfect.

b. Windlass / chain fit. Good copy! I'll have to figure out what kind of chain i have and get the same. (although I don't think I need new chain actually, just reduced)

c. "break the anchor out by cleating the line and letting the boat do it". I have no idea what this means :/ All i know about anchoring is the sail or motor forward, drop anchor, drift or motor rear until it sets, then add a snubber. (I know, I'm at mickey mouse level of expertise, and I'm still learning!)

To pull in the anchor, I've just manually pulled the boat forward, then when I'm over the anchor pulled upwards.

My boat can't do u-turns. Well, it can, I just need about 1/2 mile turning radius. hah! I'm not sure what you mean by dumping an anchor off the stern - if I had an emergency wouldn't I move the fortress to the bow and tie off and attempt to set (assume the primary was dragging)

Probably causing you to bang head on your computer...I know. I'm all ears though.

c. If the anchor is really buried, you get right over it, cleat the line short, and keep taking out slack with each wave. When the boat rises, it pulls the anchor loose. This requires time but not strength.


d. Emergency. I misunderstood. Some folks think an anchor off the back can work as a brake. You are right, if you want to add an anchor because of dragging, get to the bow. But it is a bit more complicated than that because things can tangle. I suggest googling "two anchors" and "V-anchors." As one alternative, this may help:
Sail Delmarva: Laying a Second Anchor


and this.


https://www.practical-sailor.com/iss...g_12072-1.html

[roland stockham]

The other thing to think about when considering anchors is that when it all goes pear shaped in a massive squall onto a lee shore the last thing between you and the beach is your anchor! Never forget it is a safety device.

[Suijin]

It's the Chesapeake. You're probably going to be anchoring in more than 10' of water once every blue moon.

You're overnighting. You only need one anchor. The CQR actually does exceedingly well in Chess mud. I would keep it over the Bruce as your regular everyday anchor, while in the Bay. I'd consider using the shorter length of chain on it as well; you don't need it for chafe resistance in the Bay, and 50' is plenty to set the anchor.

If you want to be safe and have a backup, throw the Bruce in the bilge, but not all the extra chain, just the rope.

[TrentePieds]

The bottom of the Chesapeake is sand, isn't it? If I'm right about that, your Bruce is just fine. It was designed for the sandy bottom of the North Sea. However - the original Bruce design was a 3-ton brute meant to hold floating drill-rigs in place. Among things that "don't scale" is anchors. Peter Bruce told me once that surface roughness of the flukes has a major impact on holding power, specifically, that apart from the issue of weight, small anchors have RELATIVELY less holding power than big anchors because the "grain" of the flukes' surface is relatively greater. Such engineering niceties aside, as I said before, my little 35-pounder is more'n adequate for my little five-ton boat.

TP

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

The bottom of the Chesapeake is sand, isn't it? TP

In my experience, the anchorages are mostly mud at least for the last 80-90 miles anyway (low bay) and as everyone knows CQR's are great for mud

There is some sand of course but mostly mud. Many types of mud and sometimes it's that really black sticky marsh mud like on seaside (ocean side Eastern Shore)

This is what my CQR was buried in a couple weeks back. (and has been many times in the past) The wind got up near 20 knots and the tides were strong as they always are at Kiptopeke. I was there for a few tide changes also where the boat swings 180 degrees (in stages). The mud was stuck all the way up the shank about an inch thick and was also on the lower part of the chain.

Lucky for me though, the wind rotated around a bit to the SW from S and the cement ships protected me from the waves since I was anchored up pretty close to them for that reason

The Anchor came out easy enough though the next morning. Nice that it was calm and at slack tide when I pulled it

My Bruce is my spare and is in the hanging locker on top of it's (rope) rode and chain. I haven't had to used it yet

Concrete Ships: Kiptopeke Breakwater

https://pilotonline.com/life/article...e917dd741.html

https://americanhiking.org/volunteer...ke-state-park/

[Large Luke]

I also have a Shannon. Mine is a 38 Ketch, and I have a 50# SARCA excel with 220' of 5/16 g4 and a 25# fortress with 80' of g4 and 140' of 3 strand rode. I ditched my CQR for the Excel after watching dozens of videos on YouTube about anchors. Look up S/V Panope and you should get all the info to make an intelligent decision.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Large Luke

I also have a Shannon. Mine is a 38 Ketch, and I have a 50# SARCA excel with 220' of 5/16 g4 and a 25# fortress with 80' of g4 and 140' of 3 strand rode. I ditched my CQR for the Excel after watching dozens of videos on YouTube about anchors. Look up S/V Panope and you should get all the info to make an intelligent decision.

Videos are great but I'm thinking real life experiences in the area the OP plans to cruise for the next few years are probably better

These videos were near the York River (west side of Chesapeake Bay) last May during a squall. (We were arguing anchors on CF at the time, but I had to stop for a bit)

The picture is the next day near Smith's Beach (East side off Eastville) Eastern Shore Side also of the old anchor

The anchor is an old and worn 20 lb CQR with maybe 35' of chain and the rest rope rode that came with the boat

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHt7ocBZKms

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gcZKr25UUM

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by eyschulman

Not to nit pick but warming up a diesel engine or gas engine at idle is against modern knowledge and advise from most if not all manufactures. If your motor needs that much time before it will not stall there is something seriously wrong with it or your drive train. If it is ancient maybe it gets a pass on this. Most advise is start up avoid idle and go slow until warm. Long ide is bad for motor and environment. A motor that is idled a lot may be prone to stall because its innards are all bogged with unburnt fuel residue.

True, but not to nit pick...


Returning the engine will be warmed-up under load. Returning also seems to be the scarier time for engine failure, because you are more committed, may be entering a strange harbor, and may have stirred up the tank.


Second, I've done many decades with heavy duty trucks and heavy equipment running diesels. What you say is absolutely not followed in practice. Heck, you can't move a heavy duty truck for a few minutes, because you are waiting for the air pressure to come up (the brakes are locked). This may be boater mantra and the internet mantra, but I'm not seeing any commercial marine or trucking support.


I did not say slow idle. A little faster reduces buildup.



With regard to gasoline engines, I'm guessing you don't have one. Particularly in winter, it may take more than 5 minutes for the choke to fully cycle off and leaving before that is is a roll of the dice. Go for it if you want to. I've had enough new engines to be sure of that.