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Old 29-07-2007, 17:24   #1
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Delta vs CQR, sizing, etc.

My partner and I have just bought a 34' Creekmore. It came with a 5kg and a 10kg Lewmar claw anchors both off the bow and a descent size Danforth anchor at the stern. We would like to get a 35lb CQR or Delta to use off the bow, instead of the tiny 5kg claw anchor. I had some questions about anchor purchasing.
1. What are the pros and cons of a CQR vs a Delta? We've heard the CQR is harder to set, due to the swiveling head, but that feature may also make it harder to break free. We don't have the experience to know from a practical standpoint which anchor we prefer. Any thoughts?
2. The Lewmar CQR anchors cost considerably more than other imitation brands. Anchor gear is not something that I want to skimp on, but at the same time, I would like to know if there is a functional difference between the Lewmar CQR (for ex) and the imitation brands.
3. I would also appreciate any advice on our choice of anchors and on sizing. We are new to sailing. We've bought the boat in Florida (during hurricane season), and we plan to go cruising with it (and want the potential to go anywhere). We were thinking of a 35lb CQR, but should we perhaps scale up?
We appreciate any suggestions.
Sue and Graham
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Old 29-07-2007, 18:00   #2
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Sue and Graham - WElcome to the forum. Two things: 1) I would suggest that you take a few moments and fill in some information in your profile (top right of this screen "PROFILE"). 2) There has been numerous threads on just this type of subject. A single click on "Search this Forum" (for Anchoring and ground tackle) with a couple of parameters will yield you many hours of reading, and advice from many points of view.

Good luck.
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Old 29-07-2007, 18:02   #3
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Here we go. You'll get a thousand different opinions on anchors. First CQR vs Delta - the CQR is an old design and there are many minuses, the Delta is a much better anchor but don't stop there. Look at the Rocna or Manson Supreme. In my view these are much superior to the CQR and Delta. As for size, I don't know the displacement of your boat but for most 34 footers I would think 35 to 45 pounds would be very satisfactory. If you're going to cruise I would recommend at least a 35#. Anchors are all there is between your boat and the rocks when it blows. Not an area to skimp on. Of course you'll go with all chain.
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Old 30-07-2007, 04:01   #4
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For a 34 Ft cruiser, I’d recommend a minimum 6kg/35lb "working" anchor, but prefer a 20kg/45lb "storm" anchor - and much prefer the Delta over the CQR.

Lewmar Delta: lewmar.com/products/index.aspx?lang=1&page_id=11
Lewmar

Lewmar CQR: lewmar.com/products/index.aspx?lang=1&page_id=12
Lewmar
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Old 30-07-2007, 05:50   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schweinsberg
My partner and I have just bought a 34' Creekmore. It came with a 5kg and a 10kg Lewmar claw anchors both off the bow and a descent size Danforth anchor at the stern. We would like to get a 35lb CQR or Delta to use off the bow, instead of the tiny 5kg claw anchor. I had some questions about anchor purchasing.
Both Claws far too small - the good news is you realize it. At minimum you will want a 30lb anchor, and then it needs to be a good one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schweinsberg
1. What are the pros and cons of a CQR vs a Delta? We've heard the CQR is harder to set, due to the swiveling head, but that feature may also make it harder to break free. We don't have the experience to know from a practical standpoint which anchor we prefer. Any thoughts?
The CQR is harder to set because it doesn't work as well as the Delta. The articulating shank has nothing to do with keeping it set; it was the only way the designer at the time could figure to get it to work at all. The Delta is, generally speaking, a far better performing anchor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schweinsberg
2. The Lewmar CQR anchors cost considerably more than other imitation brands. Anchor gear is not something that I want to skimp on, but at the same time, I would like to know if there is a functional difference between the Lewmar CQR (for ex) and the imitation brands.
The originals are always better, including the CQR. The original Bruce (from which the Claw is copied) was much more expensive too - unfortunately it is no longer produced.

The differences are most obvious in construction and quality, but do manifest in performance. For example, you may consider this comparison of a genuine CQR vs a knock-off.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schweinsberg
3. I would also appreciate any advice on our choice of anchors and on sizing. We are new to sailing. We've bought the boat in Florida (during hurricane season), and we plan to go cruising with it (and want the potential to go anywhere). We were thinking of a 35lb CQR, but should we perhaps scale up?
Abandon both and get something better.

The following chart of comments from West Marine concerning last year's comparison testing covers most of your options and provides a good starting point:

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Old 30-07-2007, 06:58   #6
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Well, I will chip in and talk about my new Rocna:

On my 33' heavy displacement boat, I have been using a 55 lbs Delta for the last 7 years or so. (Storm anchor, working anchor and lunch hook rolled into one big ball)
Been very happy with the anchor, but it dragged once and got us in a little bit of trouble as the tide was going out. (Full story on this board posted about a year ago)

A few months back I purchased a 44 lbs Rocna after having read all the tests, watched the video a few times and in general done my homwork on the Rocna.

To really "test" the Rocna I anchored at a location that is know to have less than good holding ground, used only a 3 to 1 scope, and set it using the ships engine in full reverse for 20 seconds.

The Rocan dug right in and did not budge.
Next morning we had a hell of a time getting it out of the bottom.

Guess the Rocna passed with flying colors and I got my money's worth.

Highly recommended.
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Old 30-07-2007, 09:02   #7
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From Craig's table the lightweight FX 37 and the miniscule hydrobubble seem outstanding for a weight sensitive cat
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Old 30-07-2007, 15:23   #8
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Are tests really useful?

I'm starting to wonder about tests. For a storm anchor on our 28' sailboat we bought a Fortress FX-16 largely based on tests showing phenomenal holding power. Our working anchor is a Danforth S1300 with 25' 5/16" chain and even though Danforth says it's good for a 36 foot in 20 knot wind, we have dragged in thunderstorms. We've always used Danforths, never thought much of plows so the Fortress was a logical choice.

The Fortess had chain per Fortress recommendation, ie: not much, they recommend 8 feet for each 25 feet of depth, we had 10 feet of chain. In a mud bottom with no weeds we could not get it to set at all, no matter what we tried, and we tried everything. Short scope, long scope, no scope, no chain, little bit of chain, lot of chain, flukes at 32, flukes at 45, mud palms on, mud palms off, power set gently, power set hard and every variation of each until my arms could not pull another anchor up. Not one set out of at least 25 tries over 3 hours. This was perfect testing weather too because there was no wind and we could control absolutely what the anchor did. Our little 18 HP diesel would just drag it backwards even at idle. We were very disappointed. If you can't set it, the holding power is meaningless.

A friend loaned me his Delta 35, yes I know it's huge for our boat but we wanted a storm anchor. We used the chain/rode off our S1300 as described above and the difference was stunning. That anchor would set at 2:1 scope and we could not budge it. After power setting it at 5:1, we went around the clock at least twice in 24 hours. It did not move according to our chartplotter, did not snag the chain on the anchor shank and when we left I could not break it free without snubbing the chain straight up and down and letting the waves break it loose. It has now earned a spot on our bow. Clearly, it's what works in your bottom that counts.
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Old 30-07-2007, 16:09   #9
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Quote:
I'm starting to wonder about tests. For a storm anchor on our 28' sailboat we bought a Fortress FX-16 largely based on tests showing phenomenal holding power.
The Fortress testing was done in Miami harbor in hard sand (Perfect conditions)

If you encounter soft mud, just move somewhere else and anchor instead of fighting it...Although my hat off to you for trying to set the anchor 25 times, a new world record for sure.

Seriously, I move somewhere else after the 2nd. try.
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Old 30-07-2007, 16:31   #10
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The displacement of our boat is 15800 lbs. I was wondering about this also. All of the anchor sizing charts I've seen only list anchor size relative to boat length. Wouldn't hull displacement be an important factor as well?
Sue
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Old 30-07-2007, 16:33   #11
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Needed the exercise

Worst of it was that I had to take the thing apart and put it back together about half a dozen times to try different setups, and each time that meant dunking in the old heavy Danforth. Of course it was blazing sun that day as well and the foredeck was about 100 degrees with no breeze. I went into this expecting to dip it in and set it as we always have set danforths certainly had no idea it would turn into such a marathon.

BTW, it's not really soft mud there, it's kind of a firmer clay type mud and it's pretty good holding. The bottom in this whole area is much the same except some areas are loaded with weeds, there's no sand within 40 miles that I know of. The Fortress is supposed to excel in mud, so I was totally mystified by this. When you look at the boats on our dock, there's nothing but plows and claws except a couple of diehards with Northills. Everyone kind of chuckled at our choice of anchors, now I know why.
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Old 30-07-2007, 17:19   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schweinsberg
The displacement of our boat is 15800 lbs. I was wondering about this also. All of the anchor sizing charts I've seen only list anchor size relative to boat length. Wouldn't hull displacement be an important factor as well?
Sue
Sue, YES, it is. However, not many manufacturers explicitly says this.
Please look at Rocna's site: Rocna Anchors - Sizing Recommendations

you will find sizing their anchors vs. length and displacement. Unfortunately, I cannot find anchor sizing chart for weight vs. weather. There are so many factors to consider that buying it base on practical information from sailing population is the best option.
Cheers, Chris
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Old 30-07-2007, 20:52   #13
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Clearly weather would be an infinite variable. Our sizing is about as complicated as we dare make it; we already get the occasional enquiry from those who can't figure out how to read it. I guess we could make something online that would ask a bunch of questions and spit out the most accurate answer, but that couldn't be distributed on print media.

Most manufacturers' sizing is different however; a lot, if you read the fine print, state that their sizing is to give "working anchors" suitable for winds of up to 30 (or even 20!) knots. There is a temptation to recommend smaller anchors as it makes the product look better (and cheaper).

Our figures are worked out with 50 knots wind in mind, considerable surge, and only moderate holding. (For cats you need to select the next larger size than what the table recommends, as it is intended for monohulls).
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Old 30-07-2007, 21:33   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craigsmith
Clearly weather would be an infinite variable.
Craig, I hope you have not taken my note about the weather seriously, have you???

Cheers,
Chris
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Old 06-08-2007, 21:26   #15
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Living on the hook weather is the biggest variable. Many have to move when fronts come thru and the shore becomes lee. The force wind increases by a power of 4. What held in 25 knots will slide easly in one gust of 50 knots. Chain should only be 1/3 of the total scope as the shock loading in storm conditions can and will snap chain. No one anchor is right for all bottoms or conditions. I have 6 anchors all Different. The light weight 25 lb barnacle sets best and holds my 34 ft 13,000 lb sailboat well even in 85 mph winds.
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