Delta vs CQR, sizing, etc.

[Tom Spohn]

JDope,
Use the 45 degree setting on the Fortress FX16. The 32 degree does not improve things. (Confirmed in Practical Sailor's tests) On ours as the boat very slowly backs off I tug the rode when we have about 2:1 out. If I feel a little "catch" then I back out to at least 5:1 and back down hard to set it. If not I know it is not going to set. If in a crowded anchorage I then pull in rode to about 3:1--depending on conditions of course. If there are weeds or rocks or shells on the bottom--we deploy a Davis Talon (like the Delta).

[blahman]

I choose not to use fluke anchors as my rollers are hung on my bowsprit which has a platform. The flukes don't let the shank suck up into the roller and I wind up lashing it.

Clearly there are quality issues to be reckoned with with the Manson Supreme. However, the difficulty of getting a Rocna anchor in the US (Florida) may be prohibitive.

Is the NA distributor for Rocna able to ship anchors for reasonable amounts? I would like go with a 25, so $725 + $200 for freight would make it a hard bargain to pass on me.

Thanks for your thoughts,
Aaron N.

[colemj]

You could ask them

Shipping costs for a Rocna 25 from Vancouver to CT is $86 CND + $25 CND for CND customs brokerage fee.

Guess how I know!

BTW, the 25 is WAY large for your boat. You can save some real money and still be conservative.

Mark

[GMac]

Originally Posted by craigsmith

Now why are you so sure about the copy being better than a Delta?

By copy I'm guessing you mean the Supreme. I'll assume you do.

In the West Marine and SAIL testing, the "Max Before Releasing" figures looked like this:

Supreme 36lb: 2,400lbs
Delta 36lb: 3,250lbs
Rocna 32lb: 4,800lbs

Because the Supreme was completely inconsistent and miserably failed one of the three locations:

Lets see what your chart actually says shall we. We'll also assume it is the actual numbers published by Sail, not the Rocna modified one that pops up all the time.

One set of 3 test pulls.
In 2 pulls both came out the same.
In 1 pull the Supreme didn't do as well as the Rocna.

So, you telling us 1 pull in a total of 3 makes something 'completely inconsistant'? Interesting if not just silly.

Also at 1800lbs, a load many other anchors would never get to and a load many boats would never get too, you consider 'failed miserably'. Again an interesting use of words.

Anyway it's only a matter of time before another set of test results come out showing completely differing results. We look forward to your publishing those results in the interest of fairness and boaters safety

I think your parallel would work better if there was a car company with standards and ethics low enough to make a cheap rip-off Ferrari to add to their range of cheap knock-off Sierras [Bruce] and Model Ts [CQR] ...

Lets look at that statement a bit shall we. You are saying the Supreme is a direct knock-off of Rocna.
Must be the rollbar, Nope. Sarce, Bugel and others had that before the Rocna.
Must be the concaved flukes, Nope. Spade, Bruce and others had that before the Rocna.
Must be cause it's made of steel, Nope.
Shall we continue?

It all depends how you view things don't you think? An Anchor is what it is and the nature of the beast says they will all share similar traits, that's just the way it is and always has been. Notice how 1000's of years ago people used big stones to hold their boats. Walk down to your local harbour and check out what is on the end of all those moorings, big lumps of concrete that are the same thing as a big stone. Technology hasn't moved that far in all these years, fine tuned but still basically the same as has been used for a very long time.

This Manson obsession is getting spooky Craig. I'm thinking Glen Close and a real big F' off carving knife about now.

Why do I specifically think Delta is not as good as Supreme?
- The Supreme sets more reliably and generally faster.
- Build quality even if the Supremes finish can be a bit rough at times. I still think a not-looked-after Delta will out last a not-looked-after Supreme though.
- The Delta is over priced by comparison. This will change shortly though.
- All my punters who have swaped out there Delta for Supremes say so. Whether they actually know is ir-relavent really. The Supreme lets them sleep better and that is a damn big and important part of anchoring.
- And other stuff as you know.

In 3 of the above 4 comments you can swap Rocna for Supreme and the result is the same. Comment 2 Rocna does clean up on, they are very very nicely made. None of these 3 get our 'best finish' award though.

Again - The Rocna and Supreme and Spade and a couple of others are bloody good. I'm my opinion they are better than a Delta. Do I think Delta is a bad anchor? No because it's not, as 1000's of users will agree.

PS to the viewers. Craig and I are at it like this often, gotta keep him on the straight and narrow you know I'm not trashing Rocna as it is a bloody good bit of gear. I just don't like mis-information being said. I'm the one who has to correct the punter when they think they are getting 'the be all to end all' when it's not quite like that really. I'm also Obstinate, aren't I Craig

[craigsmith]

Your post is apparently very obstinate, GMac, considering you're "in the know" and your arguments are clearly ignoring a number of things we both are aware of. Maybe it has something to do with what you're selling these days.

[GMac]

So far this week -
3 Rocnas
2 Spades
14 of your favourite Manson plows
a pile of nasty folding grapnels
3 Danforths. One being 45kg, it covers a fair bit of floor area.
And a 300kg Stockless.
Maybe a few Sarcas, just waiting to hear back.

Not bad for the middle of the month in the middle of winter.

How you going?

Your comment is trying real hard to imply what exactly?? Come on spill your guts, you know I have issues with being subtle.

I'm just correcting the odd 'interestingly' worded comments.

Watch how you word things and Mr Obstinate won't pop up, simple really

[nalani]

ok i am really confused. we have a 46' moody, displacement 33000 lbs that has a 40lb delta that came with the boat. we are going to be doing serious cruising (not to mention that we live in florida!) and really need to purchase new anchors. We have an electric windlas and want to obviously use it for our primary anchor. every article/book etc that i read has different suggestions for sizing/types of anchors. i have read a lot of favorable reviews of the rocna. please help!!!!!

[Vasco]

Nalani,

You can get a good sized Manson Supreme from Azure Marine in Fl.

[camaraderie]

Nalani...if you are gonna stick with Delta for full time cruising, I would get the 70 pounder with 3/8" BBB or better chain if your windlass will accept it.

[Keegan]

Originally Posted by GMac

Again - The Rocna and Supreme and Spade and a couple of others are bloody good. I'm my opinion they are better than a Delta. Do I think Delta is a bad anchor?

I'm not trashing Rocna as it is a bloody good bit of gear. I just don't like mis-information being said.

YES!! Nothing like hitting the nail on the head.

I would hire Craig as a marketing Spin DR. any day though. The Rocna marketing machine is almost as good as ACCO selling HT chain to American yachties for three times the price of other chain.

Keegan

[GMac]

Hey that's what marketing is all about. Craig has done damn good at promoting his product via this new fandangled interweb at a fraction of the cost many companies throw at things like this hence no massive marketing budget for the users to pay for when they buy a Rocna. When I need a promo specialist I'll be calling him, if he's still speaking to me

I do however have issues with marketing by bollix as you may have noticed. Or in this case the wording used. Sell a product on it's merits not by trashing the competitor by inflating any downsides and scaring people. Craig does have issues with the way or timing of the Supreme arrival as it shows and has taken it a bit personal. This is understandable as he is a passionate bloke and you can't knock passion like that these days, it is rare.

Anyone else post things like that I'll be into them as well. I don't pick on Craig just beceause I enjoy it. Actually I do to a point, naughty obstinate me What ever I say to Craig does not mean I don't think his product is damn good though.

Knowing both Craig Rocna, Steve Manson and the evolution of the 2 products, I'm in 2 minds as to what actually happened timeline wise but it's now history as they say and people have to live with it and just move on. Craig is improving but still struggling a tad with this bit. He'll come good though, sooner or later.

A big part of the problem is both anchors are made close together in a small country where everyone knows everyone else. Makes it hard to get separation sometimes when the competitors product is in your face all day.

Yes, we do have the odd giggle at the US Corporate marketing machine. So full of cr*p usually but then the locals buy it so it must work. I'm thinking the word 'conditioning'. It seems to be very effective for both US companies and their government. Our government isn't bright enough to realise we are a lot more sceptical and don't actually believe 98% of what they say. The HT thing is quite amusing if you know chain but then also clever to a point. Acco does make sh*tloads of HT G4 hence the $$'s that come with it and have almost a 'captive' audience.

nalani - whatever you do a 40lb Delta is too small for that vessel especially if offshore cruising. If you like the sound of Rocna buy one, they are very good. Same with the Supreme and to a point a Delta. You will have to get a bigger Delta that you would of the other 2 though, they do perform better. Just to add to you're thoughs, don't dismiss a Spade either, another bloody good bit of gear.

Work on a pound of anchor per foot of boat as a rough guide. Oversize that if using a Delta. Work on that if using one of the other 3 mentioned.

[nalani]

thank you guys for your responses. we definitely agree that the delta is way too small. if we were to get the mason supreme/rocna as our primary anchor, would you suggest a spade as a secondary or something else? also what would you suggest as a storm anchor. As i believe most people are (and i emphasize most - as i have heard mentioned) we really want to make sure we have reality based sizes/types from cruisers that are out there, instead of the manufactuar recommended sizes. I don't want to be the one dragging into you in the anchorage!!

[Keegan]

Originally Posted by nalani

would you suggest a spade as a secondary or something else? also what would you suggest as a storm anchor. As i believe most people are (and i emphasize most - as i have heard mentioned)

Nalini

My catamaran will end up being just under 30k lbs displacement and I have chosen to use the Spade Aluminum 140 as the back up. It has a huge fluke and weighs only 33lbs. If needed I can haul it in the dinghy. I purchased a Rocna 33 (73lbs) as primary but have not shipped it to the boat yet to try it out, (yes, Chris spun me enough to buy one, but at least I knew I had been spun )

I did have a chance to try the Spade A140 as my "temporary" primary anchor while in the caribbean in June. I must say I was impressed with how fast it set and held in winds in the mid 20s kts. It made me question my Rocna purchase because the Rocna is double the weight on the bough. I look forward to trying the Rocna in November and comparing. I think with the big heavy Rocna I will be more confident to anchor at shorter scope, and in the caribbean it is often crowded and hard to let out enough scope.

After reflecting more on the whole anchoring debate, I am also leaning to not purchasing a Fortress anchor as a "storm anchor" as I had orginally planned. I would feel safer on one or more anchors like the Rocna or Spade because I think they perform better on wind shifts. They have clearly perfomed better on re-setting themselves than the Fortress in some anchor tests and anecdotal stories from other cruisers. In my book, anchor re-setting, is as important as holding, during a major blow.

Keegan

[GMac]

I'd agree with Keegan and do like his (her???) thinking. Well thought out I'd say.

I don't know that I'd never carry a Fortress. If I had a big pile of spare cash (they are not cheap) I'd probably have one for those real sloppy soupie bottoms. Again the alloy does make them good for storage.

As I do have the ability to get Spades at a sharper price than most, the company buys for them for me, purely for testing and reserch purposes of course Mr Inland Revenue I have 2 on my boat, both alloys. I am in race mode currently but when I swap back to cruising I will have a Supreme as the primary. I had a R last cruising season but will go S next time. The reason I'm swapping is actually for real life testing. I have a few tests I do in seclected positions around the gulf to see how the anchors compair. Same boat, user, rode, places and so on gives real good feedback. Hence my Fortress comment abobe, I've found one place the danforth pattern does perform better than the others so far.

To date the Rocna and Spades have outperformed all others. The alloy Spade did take once or twice to set deep on the very odd occasion, the steels just dived right on in. I'm looking forward to putting the Supreme through it's paces next. Out of the Spade or Rocna I couldn't really tell any differance apart for physical fitting on the boat, the Spades are often a lot better. The performance of both is that high I just can't get the super serious loads needed to bust them with my boat and I also suspect the boat will break first anyway.

The Spades pack away real nice and as Keegan said the lighter weight makes them real easy to handle, chuck in the ding or whatever. We sell a LOT of alloys for secondarys for those very reasons. We also sell a lot as primarys but most of them are steel, multis excluded who love the alloys.

I think that if I was setting a decent mono up for offshore extended cruising I'd have a Rocna, Supreme or steel Spade as primary and a alloy Spade along with a Fortress tucked away for the bad times. Only 3 in total.

Which one of the 3 for the primary, being very honest I just don't know. At this stage it would be the Rocna or Spade. That may change after I've had more time with the Supreme. If I had to make a call right here right now I'd go Spade, they fit my boat better not to mention they just look so much sexier

Oversize by one step with the Rocna, Spade or Supreme maybe but I would not go more, you just don't need to. The Delta go up a couple of steps, you do need to with those for that extra peace of mind.

Also spend a bit of time thinking about what's behind the anchor, it has a big baring on how much work the anchor has to do and how soon it has to do it.

[Keegan]

[quote=GMac]I'd agree with Keegan and do like his (her???) quote]

He, not she.
Keegan