Anchor Chain - 1/4" HT vs 5/16" HT for 27' Cruising Mono

[matrix]

thanks barnakiel for that experience-derived info - golden. Glad to hear you cruised for many years on a 26'. I see your point about handling and link size. Another reason to go with 5/16" for sure.

So 3/8 chain @ 1.54lb/ft would be pushing 100lbs - so then 100' of 5/16" should weigh also around 100 lbs and change and work out. I'll risk 150' I think since I'll have to be going with the 25# Manson Supreme. I looked at the 35# in person and I don't think it's realistic either for me or the bow roller. The 25# looks adequate for a 27' boat on 150' of 5/16" HT. The consensus amongst the former cruisers on my dock is also that the 5/16" is the way to go.

I'll keep the chain in the bilge while on passage and hopefully fit our other chain as well.

You mention carrying 4 anchors, what do you consider a good quiver of anchors for the south pacific and how much rode did you put on your general-use stern anchor, for example?

I have currently a large 40#+ Danforth as a "Storm Anchor" and a medium 20# Danforth as a stern hook on 30' of 3/8" G40 HT + 300' of New England Ropes 3-Strand. Do you think the Danforth is a suitable storm anchor in these conditions or should I be looking at a larger plow style anchor (like the 35# Manson) as a "Storm Anchor."

Thanks!

[barnakiel]

We had a 22 Bruce bower with 3/8 chain. Then a 22 Danforth, a 25 CQR (useless), a 10 Britanny and a 10 "collapsible type".

The 2nd anchor was of course the Danforth. I normally used 5/16 chain on it, about 30' long. The rest of the chain was in the bilge in 30-60' lengths - I shackle my chain so taking it out and adding to the rode was never a problem. We had G3 chain. We had about 600' polyester multi-plait 5/8 (16mm). 150' of it on the permanently on the bower, shackled into the chain.

Handling the bower was OK unless in deeper water (deeper than 30'), then I wished I had 5/16 chain on it, not the 3/8.

I would hold on to all equipment you have. There is no such thing as "the best" storm anchor - because it all depends on where you sit out the storm. Danforth is very good in mud or sand, and a 40 lbs Danforth is a lot of an anchor.

If I were to re-organize my set (or just struck by a sudden Lotto bliss) I would take the following in my future voyages :

ANCHORS:
- bower - 33 Manson Supreme, Rocna or Spade (for the area, weight, holding, setting, re-seting and weed penetration),
- 2nd - 22 Bruce (for the ease of handling one in the dinghy),
- I would also take the 22 Danforth, a 22 Delta and a 22 Guardian (Fortress) as spares,

RODE:
- bower - 100' 5/16 G4 (G40) shackled with 150' Polyester multiplait 3/4,
- 2nd - 50' 5/16 G4 shackled with 150' Polyester multiplait 3/4,

AND:
- 100'+50' chain, same specs,
- 150'+150' polyester multiplait, same specs,
- Wichard HR shackles.

The wish list is only to show you, in contrast, my understanding of 'before&after' the big trip. It also reflects redundancy and my articular liking of using my own hook whenever possible.

b.

[s/v 'Faith']

Ok, one other 'real world' consideration.

Find a shackle that fits 1/4" ht chain.. and has a reasonable WLL. Unless you have an oversized link welded on the ends of 1/4" ht, you are very limited in the options as you can not just use the next size bigger shackle... the pin diameter is too big.

[matrix]

thanks! well i have a lot there to consider in your "ideal setup" but one question immediately comes to mind: When you say that "The rest of the chain was in the bilge in 30-60' lengths - I shackle my chain so taking it out and adding to the rode was never a problem."

... I am *assuming* that you are saying that you kept these bits of chain available to shackle to line for use in a complete rode, not that you could inter-connect these bits of chain into one longer component of chain in the rode during more adverse conditions...Or am I misunderstanding you and you did connect segments of chain together to create a longer chain rode portion at times?

In other words what I am asking is: Can I buy 1x100' of 5/16" HT and connect that to *another* 100' of 5/16" HT in some acceptable (non weakest-link) way? I always assumed this is bad practice, or is it just for the benefit of the windlass that this is not done? Your comment immediately made me think of a more modular setup wherein I could keep less chain/weight up in the bow for everyday conditions and have another 100' of the same diameter chain in the bilge for deeper anchorages, coral areas, strong winds, etc.

This is probably untenable so please correct me if it is!

[clockwork orange]

So when you guys are talking about stowing all this chain "in the bow" of a 26ft boat what are we talking,in an anchor well up high or in the locker at the foot of the vee berth? i am looking at setting up my Lindenberg 26 with a windlass and chain etc and i was up measuring things today and it has a very good location 4ft back from the stemhead to locate the windlass which would feed the chain down to the hull in a good location,certainly preferable to way fwd, is there a manual windlass available that would be suitable that i dont know about? most i have seen are rather large.
Steve

[Bash]

Originally Posted by matrix

In other words what I am asking is: Can I buy 1x100' of 5/16" HT and connect that to *another* 100' of 5/16" HT in some acceptable (non weakest-link) way?

..."No."

[matrix]

thanks - i thought so!

[barnakiel]

You can use Wichard HR shackles to join shorter pieces of HT chain.

They are not cheap but they meet, or excedeed, the chain's WLL.

A quality galvanized shackle will do the trick too. But I had big problems shopping for quality galvanized shackles, while Wichard's stuff can be gotten nearly anywhere.

barnie

[matrix]

Are the Columbus McKinnon (CM) Brand Red-Pin shackles as good as these Wichard shackles you mention? The CM Brand 3/8" has a WLLL of 4000# which seems more than adequate since 5/16" G40 is 3900# WLL. Alloy SPA Shackles

Also while we are still on the subject - what is your line type preference on your primary rode? 3-Strand, 6-Strand, 8-Strand?

This "Deep 6-Strand" @ Defender has been the highest rated strength's I have been able to find so far. I hear a lot of debate about losing valuable shock absorption properties by going a bit thick on the line - would anyone here advise against me going from 5/16" HT to 5/8" line of whatever type I decide on? I just don't want to spend all this money on anchor and chain and then put it on a line with a lower WLL - seems counter-productive.
Deep Six 6-Plait Rope

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by clockwork orange

So when you guys are talking about stowing all this chain "in the bow" of a 26ft boat what are we talking,in an anchor well up high or in the locker at the foot of the vee berth? i am looking at setting up my Lindenberg 26 with a windlass and chain etc and i was up measuring things today and it has a very good location 4ft back from the stemhead to locate the windlass which would feed the chain down to the hull in a good location,certainly preferable to way fwd, is there a manual windlass available that would be suitable that i dont know about? most i have seen are rather large.
Steve

The location - lowest best. But often it is difficult to route the chain-pipe without clogging up a small boat's forepeak. So we have a locker in the bow, less than perfect weight distribution, but the way to go in our case.

There is a manual Lofrans winch that is inexpensive and does the job. Recommended if you use deep anchorages.

b.

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by matrix

... I am *assuming* that you are saying that you kept these bits of chain available to shackle to line for use in a complete rode, not that you could inter-connect these bits of chain into one longer component of chain in the rode during more adverse conditions...Or am I misunderstanding you and you did connect segments of chain together to create a longer chain rode portion at times?

I connect chain with the anchor and with the line using shackles at each end (no magic links, no swivels, etc.). The poliester line we carry is NOT spliced into chain. We use a shackle there too. So that I can disconnect the chain from the anchor or disconnect the chain from the poliester line anytime in a wink - I just undo the shackles and reconnect or re-combine my rode as need be. I have no winch. If I had one, I would probably splice the line into the chain.

In other words what I am asking is: Can I buy 1x100' of 5/16" HT and connect that to *another* 100' of 5/16" HT in some acceptable (non weakest-link) way? I always assumed this is bad practice, or is it just for the benefit of the windlass that this is not done? Your comment immediately made me think of a more modular setup wherein I could keep less chain/weight up in the bow for everyday conditions and have another 100' of the same diameter chain in the bilge for deeper anchorages, coral areas, strong winds, etc.

We carry exactly such a "split" mini-max setup. The shackless we use are top spec - they are rated higher SWL than the chain we use. I have just downloaded Wichard's catalogue and I will see how they fit the 5/16 (I can use 12 mm shackles on 10 mm chain, but someone posted the comment on difficulty with 5/16 vs. one size bigger shackles). I will post again as soon as the catalogue is on my machine.

barnie

[barnakiel]

Wichard's pdf catalogue does not quote the pin dia. You can drop them an e-mail, but I would just walk into a chandlery, grab a 5/16 chain and test it with all quality shackles they have in store, also with the one size bigger (3/8, my guess) size.

In the worst case scenario the wichard HR 8 mm shackle (only approx 5/16 imp, but watch the specs!) is rated WL 1760 Kg and 4100 Kg BL. I think, this is, respectively, 3872 / 9000 lbs. This would be where you are if you could not fit the 'one size bigger' shackle (unlikely, but let's simulate). Now you said the selected chain has WL 3900 pounds. So it looks that even with a 'same size' Wichard HR you would have a near match. And I believe you will find one size up match too.

Check the numbers for yourselves. I am not good at conversions (I use metric stuff).

barnie

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by matrix

Also while we are still on the subject - what is your line type preference on your primary rode? 3-Strand, 6-Strand, 8-Strand?

No preference. We have 8-plait Polyester, and we love it. We could use any other line as long as we were convinced it would do the job well (and that it was the best thing we could find and afford).

Alas - I do NOT use Nylon. I do not like Nylon (here) because: - it loses strength when wet, it is more prone to UV damage, it stretches (too much). I use multiplait polyester because: -multiplait does not kink, and I am not after (too much) stretch. But I would elect Nylon over poliester for shorter applications - snubbers and mooring lines.

If any spring action is required, I would add more chain or a deploy kellet (to inrease catenary).

This "Deep 6-Strand" @ Defender has been the highest rated strength's I have been able to find so far. I hear a lot of debate about losing valuable shock absorption properties by going a bit thick on the line - would anyone here advise against me going from 5/16" HT to 5/8" line of whatever type I decide on? I just don't want to spend all this money on anchor and chain and then put it on a line with a lower WLL - seems counter-productive.

There is never any problem finding a thicker rope, so the WL / BL is not the issue (not so obvious with G-40, but mind we have G-30 only).

The point is the line is much less abrasive resistant than chain, so I use the thickest I can afford and handle (just in case its chafe resistance gets tested one day, which I try to avoid at all costs in the first place). Also, since I deploy and retrieve by hand, any line that is too fine (even if it has a space age WL) is not what I am after.

I would have to look up the specs but I believe that in our setup the line is "stronger" than chain. Could I use finer line? Yes. Would I like to handle it under load? No.

b.

[clockwork orange]

Anyone have any experience with anchoring with wire cable instead of chain or rope? i have heard that this is used in the fishing fleet in the pacific northwest on deck mounted drum winches,it seems to me that it would rust internally but what do i know,i can see the attraction as you could carry and store a lot of length in a small space. Hopefully Brent Swain will respond as he mentions it in his book.
Steve.

[klem]

Regarding stretch, the importance is to get the correct amount but not too much. If you go with a very small diameter line, it will be really stretchy and your boat will sail on the hook badly. However, a really large diameter line (probably 1"+ for this application) will have almost no stretch for the loads that you put on it and cause shock loading. Ideally, you would like a small increase in force as the boat stretches the line. What determines the stretch is a combination of length and and diameter. Assuming that you always have at least 20' of line out, you should be fine with either 9/16" or 5/8". Regarding Barnakiel's comment to use heavier chain or a kellet, I would point out that this will not work in storm conditions where your anchoring gear is really stressed and the stretch needs to come from the line. You can see the recent chain size thread if you want to read up on this more.

I have anchored on wire on larger vessels and in my mind, it is not at all practical for smaller boats. A large part of the reason why the big commercial vessels do this is that they are actually using their trawl wire to anchor and already have it. Wire is incredibly hard to handle so you need a drum to do it which is quite large and very heavy.