Use old standing rigging? Ever had a failure?

[zstine]

The 10-15 year rule is a guide. My uncle left his up for 25 years. He was meticulous about inspecting it and he was Chesapeake bay sailing. so close to shore. Then he replaced before going to the Bahamas, but said the old rigging looked like new, even when he cut a few of the lower swages open to see inside. I used to race on a Mumm 30 and we broke a D2 at the mast fitting. That was rod rig and I think in the 10-15 year old range. I replaced my rigging last year because the PO couldn't remember if/when he had ever had the rigging done on my 1975 Tartan 41. It looked fine and was likely original with the exception of the forestay which was obviously replaced when the PO added Furling 12-15 years ago. But I replaced for peace of mind b/c we go off shore.

Nowadays, Materials can be crap from china or hopefully good stuff from names like Hayn, but who knows. Failures tend to occur at fittings and typically show some sign of degradation before failing. So inspections are good. Yes, I think 10-15 year rule has a safety factor of 2 or 3 (as it should) for good rigging that's a few decades old... but there's a lot that can shorten that life, like freezing issues, cheap materials, improper workmanship, poor rig tune, hard use, etc. So, consider your use, location and type of boat. loosing the mast close to shore on a smaller boat especially if you race with people watching you, will be less problematic than a 40+ foot boat 50miles offshore, minimal crew with no way to call for help other than EPIRB. I lost a mast on a 14 ft dinghy while racing. not a problem... mast down on my 41ft cruiser = big problem. when is it time for new rig is very dependent on the person and use of the boat.

[hellosailor]

fox-
There is no "ten year rule". There is a 10-20 year RULE OF THUMB and like all rules of thumb, it is applied only when there is no better way to measure something.
Rigging needs to be replaced based on loads and load cycles. And since very few sailors below the America's Cup level install strain gauges on their rigging, you'd have no way to tell actual loads and the number of load cycles (mainly tacks) that have been made, would you?
So unless you do objective inspections with strain tests and a proper inspector (rigger) and dye tests on the fittings, etc....you apply the rule of thumb.

I've known boats in commercial use that literally wore out the gooseneck in five years. Most weekend sailors can't do that in 30 years. Same thing with rigging. You take it down in the winter? You can double the life compared to a boat that keeps it up all year. You sail two weekends a month? Or cruise it, 30 days, eight times as often? Throw in the multiplier of your choice.
You race, you slam the rigging around? You stay out in 25 knots? Or you just have two to ten most days?
Rule of thumb. The only other "RULE" is to get objective numbers. But still expect that unless you also had metalurgical testing done when you bought the rigging, that it might not age as well as it should. Cheating on wire cables has been notorious and common, since it was done by the first suppliers for the Brooklyn Bridge. (Which would have collapsed a hundred years ago, if that hadn't been caught and that wire was used.)

Rule, perhaps of literal thumb: If there's even ONE meathook in your wires? There's more you can't see, condemn it after the first meathook. Then test or replace all the rest.

[fox9988]

Thank you for all the replies, much more informative than the usual standing rigging replacement threads.

[crankysailor]

Originally Posted by Tessellate

My Navtec rod rig was 33 years old when I replaced it last year. No failures. I know a few boats going on 40 years with rod.

In my opinion, this isn't a pointless question because it highlights the fact that there's no scientific basis for any fixed # of years that someone quotes you. 10 years, 15 years? Those numbers are meaningless. There are many factors that go into rig life, so making up an arbitrary number for rig life is just a futile as declaring how many engine hours a diesel engine is guaranteed to die at.

So this thread highlights the fact that the 10-15 year number is baloney. This is something I didn't realize for several years because I was reading the same bad advice on Internet websites and forums. But later I found simply walking down the dock and asking about rig age would reveal many boats in the 30-40 yr range.

That doesn't mean it's extendable to your situation (many boats don't really sail anyway, they just motor). And there are very good reasons to replace old rigging. But the OP didn't ask that, so I'm sticking to the stated questions.

Originally Posted by Tessellate

So this thread highlights the fact that the 10-15 year number is baloney. This is something I didn't realize for several years because I was reading the same bad advice on Internet websites and forums. But later I found simply walking down the dock and asking about rig age would reveal many boats in the 30-40 yr range.

Well... it is just a number, sure. The problem is, there is no practical way to actually "know" how far into its useable life a rig is.. so the 15 yr number for a "regularly used" cruising boat in sea waters is just a guesstimation on when the risk starts being a bit bigger. You can choose to take your chances with a larger number or you can choose to to be extra safe with a smaller number (some folks say 5 years for boats crossing oceans is not a bad idea) etc.

The difference between a rig and say, an engine as you say, is that when the engine dies, you usually don't risk your boat and life. So you can wait until it does. If losing your engine meant your life could be on the line, you bet at least some people would be switching engines at 2000 hours or whatever number as a rule

The good thing about this topic is that everyone is free to believe what they want.. and you don't need to convince anyone. People bet their boat and lives on what they believe. So it is a fairly fair system I think. If you are a cautious skipper and turn out to be overzealous, you waste $$$ .. if you think it is all boloney and you turn to be wrong.. it is your life. Your call

I don't even understand the big deal to be honest.. a 1 or 2% of the value of the boat as an investment on safety once every 15 years doesn't seem to me like a big deal. Perspective folks. But like I said, to each his/her own

[zstine]

Originally Posted by crankysailor

Well...
I don't even understand the big deal to be honest.. a 1 or 2% of the value of the boat as an investment on safety once every 15 years doesn't seem to me like a big deal. Perspective folks. But like I said, to each his/her own

Hmm, if we're talking 30 year old rig, then replacement is probably more like 10-20% of the value of the boat. At least that's what is was for me at nearly $4k and that's without the cost to drop the mast and also doing install and tuning myself.

I hear the 'small investment for safety' argument all the time. Such BS! I have near ~25% of my boat's value in safety gear and I still don't even have an EPIRB. Safety gear and new rigging is not a trivial expense and one would often be better off spending on stuff to keep them out of trouble than gear to save you after you got into trouble. Each person and boat is different. Oh, and you better buy a ranch because the stairs are a killer!!

[scottgledhill]

Never had a standing rigging failure in 50 years of sailing. Replaced my 34 year old headstay last month. There are no detectable signs fatigue or failure. An examination of other elements of standing rigging show no signs of problems. Biggest problem I have discovered in last 50 years was a corroded cotter pin hidden by the roller furling. It was replaced as part of the inspection regime. Clearly I think regular inspection is the best insurance. Remember stainless steel with limited exposure to oxygen has the highest propensity for corrosion such as the hidden cotter pin.

[crankysailor]

Anyhow.. an excerpt from a book on the topic:

Marine Applications of Advanced Fibre-reinforced Composites

...Rigging is normally changed upon concerns upon undetectable corrosion fatigue bringing the mast down. Stainless steel or wire rigging could pass a visual inspection but fail without warning...

Folks saying that they just changed their 100 yr old rigging and it "looked fine", what part of "undetectable" do you find confusing?

John went to Afghanistan and came back in one piece. Ergo, I must conclude that Afghanistan is perfectly safe and all that Taliban crap is all B.S.

[Pegu Club]

We purchased our 1977 Bristol 29.9 a bit over two years back. did two seasons on it, had our rigger look at a dent in the mast, (which he fixed up nicely). He had a quick look at the rigging and found a small crack in a swagged fitting, we had the standing rigging replace that off season. He said it was very likely the original standing rigging. Forty years old....

We had planned on new Standing rigging for the next seasons end, but moved that forward.

Fair winds all.

[mowerandy]

I'll air this one again at risk of being called stupid since it might help someone somewhere.
My boat was somewhat 'over-rigged' at second hand purchase (ie heavier than standard guage rigging for her length). No PO history but rigger approval at point of sail.
About 10 years on....the forestay snapped under the furler drum where it is quite difficult to inspect and hence neglected. My rediculous good luck saw this failure happen while berthed at the marina (in 80 knots plus) else we would have lost the rig at least.
This failure was the likely result of my own ignorance in thinking it was better to detension the rig by loosening the backstay when not using the boat. OK I AM stupid, but now I know better. Someone else may not.
Keep your rigging under tension - fatigue is very hard to pick and may strike in places you cannot easily inspect, like under the furler drum

[TreblePlink]

I'm looking at replacing my rigging so this subject is interesting. But what I'm consistently hearing is that failures most often are at swaged ends. Age seems to be only a part of it.

Nobody has much bad to say about Sta-Loks. Why not use them and get away from swaged fittings?

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by TreblePlink

I'm looking at replacing my rigging so this subject is interesting. But what I'm consistently hearing is that failures most often are at swaged ends. Age seems to be only a part of it.

Nobody has much bad to say about Sta-Loks. Why not use them and get away from swaged fittings?

The use of mechanical terminals does greatly reduce the failure rate of the terminals compared to swages. But, it does nothing for wire longevity, and replacing the wire is still required. The cost of re-rigging is reduced, both by the lack of need for buying new terminals and swaging service, and by making DIY a realistic job.

We've done just that for many years and several boats.

Jim

[JPA Cate]

Kalinka wrote:

i don't recall ever hearing of the wire breaking anywhere else but at the fittings.

We had an about 6 yr old forestay break right where it came out of the terminal. It had been subject to use of a partially furled headsail.

We also had a baby stay fail, that had internal corrosion that could not be seen, maybe 8-10 inches above the deck.

Also have lost the rig --with beautiful Nichronic 50 wire, sigh-- from loss of a cotter pin. Now, that wire might have been 30 yr. wire.

[sigmasailor]

The point is that if it fails it is almost always catastrophic (and at a bad time). It's like the construction worker ignoring all safety rules stating he never fell of a roof in his life. If he's lucky he will be pensioned in good health; one mistake and 'that was that'.

[Pegu Club]

Originally Posted by TreblePlink

I'm looking at replacing my rigging so this subject is interesting. But what I'm consistently hearing is that failures most often are at swaged ends. Age seems to be only a part of it.

Nobody has much bad to say about Sta-Loks. Why not use them and get away from swaged fittings?

We used High Mod fittings so we can more easily replace cable in the future.

Fair Winds.

[Desertroseii]

Replacing rigging after 10 years to satisfy the insurance requirements is a waste of money. As is the cost of insurance.

Well designed rigging with proper tensioning will last 25years plus.

I replaced parts which i consider as critical after 18 years because i want to use my boat for another 10 to 15 years. It was all intact apart from a press fit pin in one of the toggle forks which by the way is 32 years old. Those less critical i keep an eye on them.

I have some concerns that a new wire may not be the same quality as it came from South Korea.


No rigger would find any of the faults i found with my rigging in the last 13 years by inspecting it. It required some disassembly.

If you have skills to claim the mast look at your rigging each time you are up there.Think which components work the hardest and take them apart every few years. You will be the best insurance for your rigging.

If you cannot, buy insurance, replace rigging every 10 years and relay on others to inspect it. You still may have failures.