Storm Sails

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by kas_1611

Ken,

As a jib halyard or as a "stay"?

Wouldn't it be in the wrong position and try to haul a jib forward of the genoa as that is what it is designed to do with a spinnaker or cruising chute?

I had thought of the halyard acting as a stay but couldn't figure how to attach it at the bottom or if it would be stiff enough.

Then there is the question of what to use as my jib halyard again. Could a spinnaker up haul be converted to this use? My concern here is the height of the sheave up the mast.

Cheers

Keiron

You're corrrect as is Dockhead. I wrote that very early in morning before I was completely awake. Sorry. Yes, you'll need an additional halyard for the staysail/storm jib, positioned correctly part way up the mast.

Where is the position of your spinnaker topping lift? Maybe it's in the right position?

Another issue not yet mentioned will be the need for running back stays to stabilize the mast when the staysail is deployed.

Ken

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

You're corrrect as is Dockhead. I wrote that very early in morning before I was completely awake. Sorry. Yes, you'll need an additional halyard for the staysail/storm jib, positioned correctly part way up the mast.

Where is the position of you spinnaker topping lift? Maybe it's in the right position?

Ken

A new dedicated staysail halyard is the least expensive thing in the list. It is not complicated or expensive to let a sheave for it into the mast (if you have internal halyards) or even easier if your halyards are external. Running backstays are also not expensive. The expensive thing will be the deck fitting for the inner forestay. Or it might not be all that expensive -- it depends on how your boat is built. Mine was built originally with a permanent inner forestay, which has a chainplate bolted to the watertight bulkhead behind the anchor locker. This is simple and not expensive. If you have unsupported deck where you need the inner forestay to go, it will be more expensive . Might be worth checking.

[chuckr]

We are in Turkey last year sailed the Black Sea and year before where you are and this year headed to Northern Greece and then down to Crete and back to Bodrum and down to Cyprus - we have only our inmast furling main and 135or so genny - and we when the winds get up we reef them both down to handkerchief size and have done well

when we crossed the pond we had 3 days of winds 30-35k and had both reefed way down and she was nicely balanced and we averaged a tad over 5k without pounding -

Now with the meltimi we just as soon hide out - not because of the winds but because of the sea state - the Med has those short interval steep seas and we just as soon not pound into the nonsense -

but each to his own

[Neptune's Gear]

Well, a few different ideas. I have a local copy of the ATN gale sail - that goes up over the furled genoa - as a storm jib. Yes, I have used it, both alone, and with a tri-sail. While a staysail would certainly be better, on my boat it would have required considerable structural modifications - there is simply no deck point, or convenient bulkhead, to use for suitable deck hardware for the stay.
The gale sail works better (way better) than the almost rolled up genoa. It has better shape, including a better entry. I'm talking here in winds over about 50 knots. Same for the Tri-Sail, but I have slab reefing, not furling main.
Just my experience. Others disagree.

[UNCIVILIZED]

Originally Posted by kas_1611

Many thanks to all for their valued input in this and especially for links etc. There's a lot to consider, especially the installation of any additional stays.
Yep, lots of info on installing stays in the links. Ditto on what you'll find if you do any searching here on CF. And also by perusing Colligo Marine's website, as well as most spar maker's websites.

I'm intrigued as to how a Dyneema/Spectra stay might work and if this could be, somehow, rigged up off our forward cleats as these are already a strong point. However it would still need connecting to the mast and there would still need to be a jib halyard installed so right now this is purely research.
You can easily beef up your chainlocker bulkhead, & attach the lower end of a stay to it. As to connecting it to the mast, if you don't want to add a "nose"/"beak", you can hang one from some Colligo Marine Cheeky Tangs as pictured in the below link, as well as in other pics on their website. And you can also attach a block for a halyard to the same set of tangs if you don't want to inlet a sheave box into the mast (which isn't tough to do).
Inner Forestays — Colligo Marine®

Honestly I had never really considered the in mast furling main might be a useable "full on" storm sail but thinking about it there is a truth to what was said. When it is furled in it is very flat and there is a small patch of UV protection/reinforcement (although in our case not much and it is grey) so perhaps this is the best way to go, at least for now. An emergency main could be a useful addition. Perhaps when it comes to replace our main I can get extra reinforcement added.

In answer to using the outhaul and it keeping the main furled. If I disconnect the outhaul the ratchet holds the main in the mast so all that is needed is something to fix the small amount of sail that sticks out to stop it flapping. A short length of rope to the cleats on the mast would do the job.
You really, really don't want to be messing with trying to unshackle, & shackle things to sail ends atop the boom in heavy weather. I can't stress this enough. Just plan on having a seperate sheeting system for a Trysail. Whether it's one run through a spare sheave in the boom's end, or the traditional twin sheets led to the boat's stern quarters.

FYI, the reason for the above is that the clew of the main will be wanting to flail around like an angry bull whip on steroids. And it has some nice heavy metal bits in it's end in the form of a clew board, or clew ring. Which if they smack you, will do anything from hurting like hell & leaving a nice mark, to flat out killing you.

Thanks again to all

Keiron

Synthetic (Dyneema/Dux) rigging makes it dead simple, as well as cheap to DIY an extra stay & halyard.

Note too that by adding the extra stay & halyard in the Solent position on the mast, just below the jib headstay & halyard, you needn't necessarily add running backs to the rig. Assuming that is that your rig is stout enough to handle a Trysail without them.

The sail doesn't overly much care where the top of the halyard is attached to the mast. Be it up high, near the jib halyard & stay (in the Solent position), or lower, where a Staysail stay & halyard typically get attached. This is true just so long as the center of effort of your storm sail is located in the correct spot.

[UNCIVILIZED]

Originally Posted by kas_1611

Ken,

As a jib halyard or as a "stay"?

Wouldn't it be in the wrong position and try to haul a jib forward of the genoa as that is what it is designed to do with a spinnaker or cruising chute?

I had thought of the halyard acting as a stay but couldn't figure how to attach it at the bottom or if it would be stiff enough.

Then there is the question of what to use as my jib halyard again. Could a spinnaker up haul be converted to this use? My concern here is the height of the sheave up the mast.

Cheers

Keiron

You can't use a spinnaker halyard as a stay because:
- It's too stretchy
- It's too weak
- You'll never be able to get it taught enough to use as a stay such that you can achieve good sail shape in the storm sail hanked onto it.
- It's in the wrong location. Too high, & out in front of the headstay. So you'd have an "interference fit" if you tried to fly a storm sail on it.

You can however use a spin pole topping lift as a staysail halyard, provided that you put the staysail stay just above it on the mast. And that the topping lift is strong enough to handle the loads. As when flying a storm sail/staysail, the halyard sees loads comparable or in excess of those on the jib halyard.

[AiniA]

Good advice here, I will add my own experience. We circumnavigated our Bristol 45.5 (very different in displacement from yours) with a furling main (loved it) and 135% genoa. We also have a smaller jib, a removable inner stay (with running backstays) that takes a staysail and a storm jib, and a trysail with its own track and halyard. We never used the storm jib or trysail and rarely used the 90% or the staysail. Couple of thoughts about this, our main and genoa are both fairly heavy cloth and well-made and stood up well. We often used the main rolled up 70% or more and worked fine. At times we had the genoa very much rolled up. When it is rolled a lot it does get flatter again - reefed 50% or so is when it gets very full even with luff padding.

I think that you also need to consider your options at different wind strengths. What you need at 25 to 35 knots is quite different than what you need at 40 to 50 knots. Also your needs at different points of sail will vary.

Interesting that one poster likes his storm jib that goes around the furled jib. Never used one, but have experienced the conditions where you want to use one and it would seem to me to be a challenge on our 37,000 lb boat. On a lighter boat it would be harder still. I think some sort of inner stay makes sense. You could go the solent stay route and avoid runners or go with a cutter-style stay but you would need runners. Others might disagree but I wonder if you use a Dyneema bridle from your bow cleats if they are strongly build and all-reinforced (this may or may not be the case since the cleats are not really designed for upward pull). Also you need to think about sheeting for a staysail (I think this would be better than a storm jib). Talk to your sailmaker about your main and genoa and about his/her recommendations for a storm sail. Forget about a trysail I think.