Stealth mode - New Generation Ropes

[Seaworthy Lass]

Conachair, what happens when the shackle in the loop connects the thimbles?

The loop is bound to rotate around, even if it is only on the initial deployment.

[conachair]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

Conachair, what happens when the shackle in the loop connects the thimbles?

The loop is bound to rotate around, even if it is only on the initial deployment.

Maybe a bit if line rolling hitched or something between the 2 sides of the loop?
Stuff like that is often better left to when y8u have it sitt7ng in front of you, usually the answer comes to find you then. Also it wouod be good to have something to keep the shackle in line so it couldn't twist round and get side loaded. Liken a roll of duct tape
Not gotta last a year, just a day or so storm.
I keep coming back to to connections to the boat as a point of failure, big dyneema with decent bend ratio and spansets will take an astronomical load, how much will the back of your boat take...
Sorry, don't want to scare anyone..

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by conachair

I keep coming back to to connections to the boat as a point of failure, big dyneema with decent bend ratio and spansets will take an astronomical load, how much will the back of your boat take...
Sorry, don't want to scare anyone..

The connection points are undeniably a big concern.

We are very lucky having a beefy aluminium boat. The double bollards shown below go through the deck and are welded to one of the frames. It is hard to get a perspective of size, but end to end these are about 400 mm wide. Two of these doubles are at the stern:

[conachair]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

The connection points are undeniably a big concern.

We are very lucky having a beefy aluminium boat. The double bollards shown below go through the deck and are welded to one of the frames. It is hard to get a perspective of size, but end to end these are about 400 mm wide. Two of these doubles are at the stern:

Ah, forgot you had a fantastically beautiful ali boat

[BigBeakie]

After all, it is a Beastever ! (misspelling intentional) 😉

So now I gather you are keeping a close eye on the weather to go find the nastiest North Sea storm you can find, to try it out?


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[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by BigBeakie

After all, it is a Beastever ! (misspelling intentional) 😉

So now I gather you are keeping a close eye on the weather to go find the nastiest North Sea storm you can find, to try it out?


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I suppose this was a joke, but I actually think there would be merit in intentionally going out in a big gale (maybe F9) in some place readily accessible to rescue services, like the North Sea, and get some practice with the drogue, and with how the boat handles in such conditions, before venturing further from civilization. In addition, the shallow North Sea will give a worse sea state for a given wind speed.



I've been in those conditions in the North Sea, without a drogue, and got knocked down for my trouble. My boat as an extra jumbo size, semi-balanced rudder and is quite stable running off, so we were quite comfortable and under control until the breaking wave strike which knocked us down. I would very much like to know how that would have gone had we been lying to a drogue.

[BigBeakie]

SWL,

I apologise in advance for the thread drift, but it IS about Acera 14mm, at least.

Did you say you used it on the "Beast" as halyard(s) with the Antal halyard tensioners? If so, how is it for creep, so far?

I'm considering it for our main, jib & staysail halyards, with the furling jib & staysail on the Antal tensioners.


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[BigBeakie]

Yes, I was just kidding, of course. Nobody would go looking for trouble and put their home and loved ones at real risk, just for "research". Especially with The North Sea!

But, someone, somewhere will get some experience with the dyneema rode for JSD, and hopefully report back.


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[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by BigBeakie

Yes, I was just kidding, of course. Nobody would go looking for trouble and put their home and loved ones at real risk, just for "research". Especially with The North Sea!

We have been in two Force 9 gales in the North Sea in the short time we have owned the current boat. The first was when we were caught out for about six hours close hauled at the end of the maiden voyage from the Netherlands to the NE tip of the Scottish mainland. The seas did not have a chance to build.

The second was returning in winter with a Severe Gale Force 9 to Storm Force 10 close to downwind for about 36 hours. We flew along almost bare poled (tablecloth sized amount of staysail out). At no time did I feel we needed to deploy a drogue. Even had ours been completed, under those conditions I really would not have felt like playing with practising anything. So I think the high latitudes of the North Atlantic is where this drogue is more likely to be needed (or the Southern Ocean).

That last North Sea crossing was a fun ride. You have to admit this is a happy face :

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by BigBeakie

SWL,

I apologise in advance for the thread drift, but it IS about Acera 14mm, at least.

Did you say you used it on the "Beast" as halyard(s) with the Antal halyard tensioners? If so, how is it for creep, so far?

I'm considering it for our main, jib & staysail halyards, with the furling jib & staysail on the Antal tensioners.

Sorry, I can’t be of much help here.

I think we had some form of dyneema (maybe SK 99, as it has needed so little adjustment since delivery) fitted by the boat builder’s rigger. It was not Acera.

By the way, the Antal tensioners are brilliant.

[BigBeakie]

SWL,

Thanks for that. We may do a pre-tension test of the Acera 14mm. Was thinking of hanging the 4WD down a hill off it for a few hours, in neutral, with wheel chocks just behind the tires, just in case 😳


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[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

We have been in two Force 9 gales in the North Sea in the short time we have owned the current boat. The first was when we were caught out for about six hours close hauled at the end of the maiden voyage from the Netherlands to the NE tip of the Scottish mainland. The seas did not have a chance to build.

The second was returning in winter with a Severe Gale Force 9 to Storm Force 10 close to downwind for about 36 hours. We flew along almost bare poled (tablecloth sized amount of staysail out). At no time did I feel we needed to deploy a drogue. Even had ours been completed, under those conditions I really would not have felt like playing with practising anything. So I think the high latitudes of the North Atlantic is where this drogue is more likely to be needed (or the Southern Ocean).

That last North Sea crossing was a fun ride. You have to admit this is a happy face :

Looks like a nice, safe cockpit!



The problem with that kind of weather is breaking waves. We were also quite OK right up until we got whacked, running off under a little scrap of jib, with very good control, although I would not have been willing to try to head up (which is what required us to go the wrong way up one TSS, but that's a different story, already posted about).



If I am ever in conditions like that again, and I see waves starting to break (sometimes happens after the blow is over), I will deploy the drogue. I think a breaking wave strike would be not that dangerous provide you are stabilized by the drogue so you can't broach like we did. Without it, you are really screwed if you get hit -- no rudder in the world will hold you out of the resulting broach.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Looks like a nice, safe cockpit!



The problem with that kind of weather is breaking waves. We were also quite OK right up until we got whacked, running off under a little scrap of jib, with very good control, although I would not have been willing to try to head up (which is what required us to go the wrong way up one TSS, but that's a different story, already posted about).



If I am ever in conditions like that again, and I see waves starting to break (sometimes happens after the blow is over), I will deploy the drogue. I think a breaking wave strike would be not that dangerous provide you are stabilized by the drogue so you can't broach like we did. Without it, you are really screwed if you get hit -- no rudder in the world will hold you out of the resulting broach.

Well, we haven’t been in F9 or higher conditions yet, but have seen F8 with occasional large breaking waves. Our cat (and I assume others as well) seems to be stable to a breaking wave strike as the second hull keeps things on track.

Of course, in survival conditions all bets are off. A JSD will certainly help keep things on track. Our boat has 2.5m of hulls behind the aft beam and another couple of metres to the salon door, so I’m certainly counting on lots of buoyancy back there to preserve our structural integrity when running with our soon to be built JSD in those conditions.

I don’t trust our cat to not sail to a sea anchor (even with constant tension due to weight) so the JSD is our solution.

[Juho]

I finally got my camera running. Here's a picture of the knot that I shortly described verbally. In this knot I used three lines with a loop in each. The idea was to have all the loops interconnected, and to have a relatively big radius in the turns, and to make a knot that stays stable (no chafe). The downside of this knot is that the loops remain a bit open. That's why I have some symbolic whipping in the picture. (One could also use a line with no loop, and just tie the working end to the standing end somehow.)

I attach another bonus picture that is just food for your thought. It's however a bit ugly, so not very appetizing . The idea is just to study how one might tie a stable know if the bridle part consists of one line only (instead of two separate lines, one to the right and one to the left corner of the boat). The mess in the middle is two rounds of the striped ropes around the dotted rope (to make the knot more stable than it would be with one round only).

[Steve_C]

While those may work, I wonder how easy they would be to undo once you put several tons of strain on them. Personally I am looking for the simplest form factor that checks all the boxes. I also like to keep the junction as narrow as possible to minimize the yawing back and forth as the load shifts from one to the other.