Replacing genoa with Code Zero

[daletournier]

Hi all, over the course of my lastest passages there's been times that I haven't been happy with my Genoa.

The 135% in the right conditions is great but the more its rolled up the less great it becomes, and I'm talking just to windward.

There were times that the wind and swell wete up that the heavily furled Genoa would cause (or contribute to ) the boat rounding up, both almost ddw and beam reaching (or there abouts). The problem is the COE being moved up and forward as you furl. This is hard on the autopilot and the Hydrovane wants nothing to do with it.

Im considering a code zero on a continuous line furler and replacing my Genoa with my 100% Jib. Hopefully minimizing some of the genoas not so great points while keeping the power of it in lighter winds by having the code Zero.

Interested in thoughts prior to forking out another $6,500.

Cheers Dale.

[UNCIVILIZED]

I'm guessing that you read my post here about 3-headsail rigs? http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ml#post2466602
Specifically:
- a Code 0 (or spinnaker) on a short sprit, preferably with a furler
- a 120%-135% jib on your headstay on a furler
- an 70%-90% Solent on a Solent stay.

My thinking is this. The genoa is big enough to give you the perks of having a bit of overlap, without being a beast to tack, like with a 155%. And at 125% you can roll it down to about 100% of the foretriangle while still maintaining decent shape. Yet the sail is also sufficiently large down to say 7kts +/- AWS.

When the winds drop below the threshold where the genoa works, or you want more power when reaching, unfurl the Code 0. Preferably one with an anti-torsion cable, & 2:1 purchase on the halyard, so that it'll have a taut luff for upwind work.

Then, if the wind has strengthened to the point where the genoa rolled down to 100% is too big, you can shift gears ("reef") by switching to the Solent.

The above setup gives you 4 "reefs" or gears, headsail wise:
Code 0
125%
100%
75%

And should the breeze freshen more, you can set a smaller jib on the Solent Stay, or switch to a Staysail. Flown either on a detachable Staysail Stay, or by moving the Solent Stay's bottem end aft to the Staysail position on deck. Assuming, that is, that you build the Solent Stay with an adjustable, high purchase tackle on it's bottom end. To make up for the small stay length differences between the 2 locations, & so that you can vary the tension on the stay fairly easily. Especially if you lead the tail of the tackle on the stay's bottom end back to a winch.

One other option for a Staysail with such a setup is to go to a Trinquette, AKA a Staysail with 2:1 or 3:1 purchase on the halyard (or bottom end), & a built in luff rope. With or without a furler similar to those used on Code 0's.

Obviously though, the size of each of the sails is much determined by how stiff your boat is, how & how well she shifts gears (including by reefing the main), & the predominant wind strength brackets where you sail. With headsail driven boats likely needing more flexibility in terms of jib sizes than boats which derive a lot more of their power from their mains.

[daletournier]

Thanks uncivilized. I saw the other thread just after posted this one.

I think what you suggest is perfect.
At this stage I'll pass on the solent purely to keep expenditure down ,and its a little more difficult to setup, but down the track I'll think I'll go that route.

Appreciate your advice and time.

[UNCIVILIZED]

Glad my ideas got the wheels turning in your head. And in terms of adding a stay, Solent or other, Colligo Marine has some sweet KISS hardware for both ends of it. Their Cheeky Tangs allow you to hang both a synthetic stay (Dux Dyneema), & it's halyard off of the same "tang". And it requires drilling but one hole through the mast.

[Snowpetrel]

I like the idea. As long as the jib works reasonably well for your boat most of the time. My current boat sails fine with a 100% jib even in light airs. So in my case a code zero type sail would work well for extra power on a reach, for very light windward work and opposite the poled out jib for DDW.

I'd have thought the first step would be to sail for a few months just with the jib and main. See what windspeeds are your weakness. That way a cruising code zero can be optimised for your boat and the right wind range and angles.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by Snowpetrel

I like the idea. As long as the jib works reasonably well for your boat most of the time. My current boat sails fine with a 100% jib even in light airs. So in my case a code zero type sail would work well for extra power on a reach, for very light windward work and opposite the poled out jib for DDW.

I'd have thought the first step would be to sail for a few months just with the jib and main. See what windspeeds are your weakness. That way a cruising code zero can be optimised for your boat and the right wind range and angles.

I know this sounds crazy, but the next 8 mths in the Seychelles I'll be learning how to sail the boat although I just did 7,200nm across an ocean in it. I basically purchased it ,did a quick refit and took off. Of course I can sail it but being based here for a while and day sailing trying different things is going to be great to fine tune some things.
I already have the 100% ( brand new) but haven't used it much.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED

Glad my ideas got the wheels turning in your head. And in terms of adding a stay, Solent or other, Colligo Marine has some sweet KISS hardware for both ends of it. Their Cheeky Tangs allow you to hang both a synthetic stay (Dux Dyneema), & it's halyard off of the same "tang". And it requires drilling but one hole through the mast.

Great, I'll check Colligo out.

[Snowpetrel]

Originally Posted by daletournier

I know this sounds crazy, but the next 8 mths in the Seychelles I'll be learning how to sail the boat although I just did 7,200nm across an ocean in it. I basically purchased it ,did a quick refit and took off. Of course I can sail it but being based here for a while and day sailing trying different things is going to be great to fine tune some things.
I already have the 100% ( brand new) but haven't used it much.

Ha, good onya. Sounds like you have a while then to see how she goes with the jib before you commit to buying a code zero.

I wouldn't want a boat that can't get out of it's own way until the wind gets over ten knots with normal working canvas.

My grandfather found his Jib used to give him far less weather helm than his Genoa.

[Snowpetrel]

http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=3367

If this is what you have it looks like a reasonable Sa/disp of around 18, so that bodes well for the jib.

The forward lowers may make sheeting a jib a bit tricky depending on the cut of the sail. Sometimes with this arrangement sheeting angles get messed up, and you can't easily sheet inboard of the shouds like you can if the forward lowers aren't in the way.

[Kenomac]

One significant thing to consider in having a sail on a continuous furler up front is the oscillation that can get started by the wind. We've had trouble with this when using our spinnaker on a Balmar continuous furling system, and sometimes the forward furler gets in the way of the airflow over the jib. Because of this, we only have the furler raised when using it, otherwise it's stored below.

These things really need their own stay to prevent oscillation.

[Dockhead]

I think your plan is excellent.

I can tell you something about my own experiences.

My boat is cutter rigged, and was delivered with a 120% yankee as the principle headsail.

I had new sails made a couple of years ago, and I had a new 120% yankee made from carbon laminate, and a 95% blade jib. I figured I would use the blade just for long upwind passages and continue using the yankee for general purposes.

Well, the blade works so well in almost all conditions and points of sail, that the darned expensive yankee mostly takes up space rolled up in the forecabin. I guess I'm using the blade probably 80% or more of the time.

With the wind ahead of the beam, the blade gives equal power to the yankee even in very light wind, and has far less drag. I point about 5 degrees higher with it. Far less heeling and drag, and I don't need to reef it until about 30 knots apparent (at which point I don't reef it at all, but just put it away and switch to the staysail).

On a reach in light wind it is somewhat less powerful, but the difference is not nearly as much as I would have expected. Downwind obviously it is much less powerful.

In short, it is a fantastic sail, far more versatile than the yankee. Whereever it is not quite as good as something else, I can motorsail.

If I could do it over again, I would not have ordered the overlapping yankee at all -- I would have done a cruising Code 0 and added a sprit for it. This is the perfect complement to the blade -- for sailing off the wind in lighter conditions.

I don't like big overlapping genoas at all, to be honest. They are poor upwind even within their wind range, and once you start reefing them -- fuggedaboutit. They are hard to trim, create huge amounts of drag. They are really good only off the wind and in light conditions, and for that, the cruising Code 0 is much better. So why not go the whole hog and go to the 0?

I think your plan is spot on

[daletournier]

Years ago I had a tophat 25, primrose design. I was new to sailing. They had a great reputation and this particular one was immaculate ,BUT I thought it was a pig!!
It had a large genoa on it and was just impossible to balance, I broke the autopilot etc. Anyway as I said I was pretty new to sailing and had just enrolled in a zero to hero rya yacht masters course. A guy I was doing it with had no sailing experience at all and asked me to come look at a tophat like mine that he was considering buying.

To cut the story short the boat was in terrible condition but had a good set of sails, no Genoa but a nice 100% jib. I took it out, couldn't believe how well it sailed, I didn't want to take it back, this really got me thinking.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by Snowpetrel

http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=3367

If this is what you have it looks like a reasonable Sa/disp of around 18, so that bodes well for the jib.

The forward lowers may make sheeting a jib a bit tricky depending on the cut of the sail. Sometimes with this arrangement sheeting angles get messed up, and you can't easily sheet inboard of the shouds like you can if the forward lowers aren't in the way.

Yep that's it. Really like this boat.

[TheThunderbird]

My boat 1989was designed for a 140%:-)

traveller is 6m long:-)

I decommissioned Genoa and use staysail and/or 100% jib:-) no regret

Genoa is a remnant of old racing rules (imo)

I like the silent stay for very large yachts only , say >60'. But they unfurl / furl when tacking , not my style

[waterman46]

Intrigued by advantages of Code 0? I could set one with tack about 2 ft forward of the genny but I understand it should be lowered and stored when wind or seas require. Likely to be wet, awkward in any case. Can't imagine where i would stow it unless its in the forward head. So what do you folks do about stowage?