Replacing genoa with Code Zero

[a64pilot]

Mine goes in a Sail bag about 2' around and 4' long and goes in aft Stateroom, which is now storage.
For a lightweight sail, its bigger and heavier than I expected.
Your supposed to coil it like a snake, but the wife couldn't. I'm going to try to stow it myself today and try to coil it.
When furled it is really, really stiff though, not sure it will coil.

[donradcliffe]

Originally Posted by daletournier

There were times that the wind and swell wete up that the heavily furled Genoa would cause (or contribute to ) the boat rounding up, both almost ddw and beam reaching (or there abouts). The problem is the COE being moved up and forward as you furl.

Cheers Dale.

Why do you think that moving the COE FORWARD makes the boat round UP more? If you are rounding up reaching, the answer is to reduce the mainsail area.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

Why do you think that moving the COE FORWARD makes the boat round UP more? If you are rounding up reaching, the answer is to reduce the mainsail area.

Yes your right sort of. Having to much main up, or an over powering main will in most cases create weather helm BUT I'm not necessarily talking about weatherhelm exactly. The furled genoa heading up as its furled combined with a certain wave action pulls/heels the bow , the action resulting in it rounding up. In fact furling the genoa completely and sailing with reduced main resulted in a better helm. Its not a problem only associated with this boat.
I experienced this on a smaller boat I had, the changing to a jib solved the problem.
I haven't explained this well, sorry best I can do. The times its happened I know a staysail with reduced main would have been perfect, getting the power of the headsail closer and lower to the mast.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

Why do you think that moving the COE FORWARD makes the boat round UP more? If you are rounding up reaching, the answer is to reduce the mainsail area.

In my experience, rounding up while reaching is almost always due to oversheeted mainsail, unless the boat is simply overpowered and heeling excessively. But flattening the mainsail and getting the boom out sometimes is a near-miraculous cure for this.

You are right that moving CE forward won't do this, but all the extra drag from the awful shape of a reefed roller furling headsail can indeed cause excess heeling and excess weather helm from hydrodynamic force.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

Why do you think that moving the COE FORWARD makes the boat round UP more? If you are rounding up reaching, the answer is to reduce the mainsail area.

The first time I experienced rounding up due to over sized headsail was I my tophat 25. I knew that to much main resulted in weatherhelm, text book stuff. Reducing main, flatting main, none of it worked, in the end it was the Genoa heeling and pulling the bow, causing the bow to dig in resulting in the boat wanting to round up. The more its furled the more leverage is applied as the sail moves up even though its less sail.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by daletournier

The first time I experienced rounding up due to over sized headsail was I my tophat 25. I knew that to much main resulted in weatherhelm, text book stuff. Reducing main, flatting main, none of it worked, in the end it was the Genoa heeling and pulling the bow, causing the bow to dig in resulting in the boat wanting to round up. The more its furled the more leverage is applied as the sail moves up even though its less sail.

I don't think it's from moving the CE, but I've experienced this phenomenon. I think it comes from drag.


The genoa sail is a light air reaching sail, and an obsolete racing rule beater. I don't like them as all around headsails!

[thudbranch]

I added a top down furler with a large gennaker on it to my Cal 31 sloop. To do so, I added a short retractable bow sprit (pictures attached.) The sprit has to extend forward enough so the furler clears the bow pulpit when attached to the spinnaker crane. Also the spinnaker crane may need reinforcement-- the loads of a the gennaker head and tac attached not at crane and actual sprit, but rather a foot or so from each end of the furler create significant loads. Furthermore, I elected to have a controllable tack position on the furler-- I can, from the cockpit, let the foot raise up on the furler torque line about 5 feet. The controllable foot allows my gennaker to fly shifted over to the windward side of the boat at deep downwind angles. With the main up, I can fly at apparent wind angles of at least 165deg all the way down to 50-55deg. With no main-sail up, and the gennaker tack raised, the gennaker will fly just fine at 180deg- dead down wind. With the tack pulled downward tight, it flies like a 190 genoa. I sail in Puget Sound among its many islands. I often have varying winds strengths and directions all day long. I often change between my 130 genoa and the gennaker several times a day. So, I keep both fullers up on such days, and I can single hand my gennaker/genoa combo. Love this set up, it allows us to sail downwind at 3-4knots with 3-4knots apparent wind. It has significantly reduced our motoring time.

If I think I am not going to use the gennaker furler for a while, I often store it mostly laid inside its bag tied on deck, with the tack still attached to the and its sheets still run. This keeps it out of wind in front of the Jib. I can put it back up just by hoisting its head right out of the bag. Note that I am sailing in the protected waters of Puget sound when I sail like this and not in an open ocean setting. I originally tried this set up out with a small gennaker (yellow & pink) and later changed to a larger one (red, blue & white)- I do not regularly use two different gennakers. You could purchase a 2nd furler torq-rope if you wanted to fly two different size sails. I have included pic's:

BowSprit Extended & spinnaker-roller-furler P1020381.jpg Views: 487 Size: 420.0 KB ID: 155363" style="margin: 2px" />
1. of the furler laid on deck-not in its bag-for a temporary stay at dockside.


2. Closed reaching with Gennaker


3. Both Gennaker & Jib furled while motor sailing


4. Tack fitting that slides on Furler Torq-rope. Pulled down by control line shown in front of torq line.


5. Small test gennaker showing raised tack


6.Dead Downwind Sailing-Tack Raised

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by Snowpetrel

My grandfather found his Jib used to give him far less weather helm than his Genoa.

This is really interesting... I have heard of this but I can't think of a reason for it... perhaps someone better versed in the physics can help me understand it... What kind of boat was this?

[thudbranch]

My sloop is a Cal 31- Which physics are you wondering about?

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by thudbranch

My sloop is a Cal 31- Which physics are you wondering about?

Oh I was pondering what Snowpetrel posted back in #8 and the subsequent ones. I am trying to find a Bernoulli kind of explanation in my brain for how a jib would give less weather helm than a genoa. I know it's there somewhere. I can see that the CE moves back a bit, which could explain it, but in my experience, the bigger headsail reduces weather helm balancing the vane of the main.

on edit: sorry I wasn't reading all the others well... it's in the physics incurred on heeling, yes... now how to explain it?

[td0tz]

Originally Posted by daletournier

Yep that's it. Really like this boat.

7,200 miles across the Indian Ocean(?) in a Catalina?

Gee, Dale, don't you know Catalinas are not Water boats">blue water boats?

[donradcliffe]

Originally Posted by Snowpetrel

My grandfather found his Jib used to give him far less weather helm than his Genoa.

You grandfather's genoa didn't have roller furling.

The picture shows a very balanced sailplan and a happy autopilot, passing the fleet in the Over the Top Rally.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Don C L

This is really interesting... I have heard of this but I can't think of a reason for it... perhaps someone better versed in the physics can help me understand it... What kind of boat was this?

This physics behind it are simple -- drag!

I've also experienced exactly the same thing.

[Snowpetrel]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

You grandfather's genoa didn't have roller furling.

The picture shows a very balanced sailplan and a happy autopilot, passing the fleet in the Over the Top Rally.

Actually it did have roller reefing. An old topliss unit. He was an early adopter of modern ideas.. It was a comment he made to me when I was about 12 or so that baffled me at the time.

In light airs I asked why he didn't use the genoa. His answer was that it generated too much weather helm, even when reefed. And that the boat balanced much better with the smaller yankee.

This was not what my sailing books said, but he knew his boat.

I suspect it also has something to do with the way the airflow interacts with the mainsail. As from an aerodynamic point of view both sails are really just one big slotted foil. When the main is down the situation changes and the same genoa develops lee helm.

It also may be due to the shoddy shape of a old dacron genoa. But it is interesting that a lot of race boats switch out the genoa before they reef the main. The days of heavy no2 genoa's and reefed main seems to be gone.

[brownoarsman]

I have been wondering the same thing, and think it makes sense even for the coastal cruiser (though I really dislike my roller reefing). Here is the thread if it contains any ideas not expressed here. http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...d.php?t=190237