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Old 03-12-2010, 09:54   #31
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McLube works wonders on my lugs (with a Tides Marine track).
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Old 03-12-2010, 10:17   #32
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Originally Posted by SV Escape Plan View Post
I did the Annapolis to Bermuda race a few years back on a boat with the Harken Bat car system and was not impressed. It is very expensive and has too many moving parts and the size of the cars means you need mast steps to reach the head of the sail because when lowered or reefed the cars stack up. The antal system is marginally better but still has a lot of the same issues and is very expensive too. I prefer the Tides Marine Strongtrack

Tides Marine - Manufacturer of the SureSeal Shaft Seal


It makes hoisting and lowering much easier and is not a complex system with bearings and such.

That being said depending on the size of the boat and set up a properly installed set of sail slides in a clean and lightly lubricated luff groove can be lowered easily off the wind as several have mentioned. What often happens is sailmakers sew the slugs onto the luff with sections of webbing and they make the webbing very tight so that it can not slide in the slot on the luff slug. Then when you go to hoist, the webbing instead of sliding to the top of the slug wants to pull the slug from the bottom and causes the slug to bind in the mast groove. Same thing happens on the way down. A better solution is to attach the slugs to the luff with a loose dyneema lashing of small diameter. Then when you pull down on the luff the lashing slides to the bottom of the slug and pulls the slug down with no binding.

Take a look at this PDF, the only properly attached slugs in my opinion are numbers 3 and 4. Number 2 and 5 are most common and guarantee the slug will bind.

www.sailrite.com/PDF/Slugs%20Slides%20and%20Shackles.pdf


Sorry for taking the thread off of reefing but this is an important consideration and a major source of difficulty with just about any reefing system.
The way I read it Sailrite pretty much came to the opposite conclusion of yours in the article you referenced. They say 3 and 4 are the most common, and that webbing allows the most articulation, which I interpret as allowing the sail to twist more before you bind up the slug.

John

From Sailrite pdf refed above:

There are several different attachment methods to consider when installing slugs and slides. The strongest and most common attachment method is with a shackle and grommet. Webbing is more labor intensive but allows for greater articulation of the slug position.
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Old 03-12-2010, 15:09   #33
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Webbing can allow the most articualtion but not when it is sewn as tightly to the slide as those pictured. Think about what will happen when you pull from the head of sail when hoisting. That tension will transfer through the webbing to the slide and try to pull from the whole web of the slide instead of sliding to the top of the slug and towing the slug up the luff groove. The top portion of the slug get pushed fwd towards the bow and the bottom of the slug gets pulled aft causing the slug to bind in the luff groove. I have inspected slugs set up in this way and they show wear patterns from getting cocked on the way up and down . Mclube will certainly help but if you look closely at the slugs you will see the articualtion.

So I have no problem with webbing it just needs to be sewn in a fashion that allows it to move to the top (when hoisting) and bottom (when dousing) of the slug. This rarely happens. For my own boat I used dyneema 1.75mm and made a lashing.

Boating|Marine Rope - Hi-Tech Braid Lash-IT™ and Zing-IT 1.75MM GRY LASH-IT DYNEEMA (600)

been there for 3 years now holding up better than the nylon for UV and abraision.
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Old 03-12-2010, 16:26   #34
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Thanks again everyone for your thoughts and experiences. True, this mainsail slides play a big roll in reefing, tight vs loose attachement is an interesting argument. I would like to enter into this that the slide itself plays as a big of a roll as the type of track. Metal slides and high strength tephlon impregnated slides are vastly different than nylon slides. Nylon slides are there to be cheap, as are stainless or nylon luff shackles. Webbing, lashing, or pinned on cars are the best ways of sail attaching.

One thing I think everyone has overlooked in my reefing discussion is that we are talking about a 27ft pocket cruiser (sturdy and mighty though she is). Without rigging it up and finding out for real; I think the friction and loose clew are moot points on a 27ft boat and a winch. I am leaning towards thinking single line with a cabintop winch is going to be the cleanest and easiest reefing scheme for me. Anyone disagree?
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Old 03-12-2010, 18:15   #35
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I am leaning towards thinking single line with a cabintop winch is going to be the cleanest and easiest reefing scheme for me. Anyone disagree?
Not me. Everyone has to go through that stage
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Old 03-12-2010, 18:25   #36
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Originally Posted by Velocir View Post

One thing I think everyone has overlooked in my reefing discussion is that we are talking about a 27ft pocket cruiser (sturdy and mighty though she is). Without rigging it up and finding out for real; I think the friction and loose clew are moot points on a 27ft boat and a winch. I am leaning towards thinking single line with a cabintop winch is going to be the cleanest and easiest reefing scheme for me. Anyone disagree?
I was surprised how much friction I had on a 25' boat with a single line reef. Reefing cringles are not low drag. I did have a winch there as well, though I didn't think I should have to use one on a 25' boat.
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Old 03-12-2010, 18:33   #37
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ive sailed a few boats in this size range and really liked the roller boom option. The f-27 had this and it was great so long as the boom or topping lift were set right. sailed a 26 and a 35 with a similar rig and thought it quite well. my peterson has slab reefing and this works well given the canvas. on a 26 - 27 a roller boom may be my choice.
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Old 03-12-2010, 18:40   #38
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This is an enlightening thread. Thanks to those who've said they can lower the main luff to reef in strong conditions without going head to wind. I had always thought it was necessary to go head to wind. I agree this can be difficult and even dangerous in a blow and have tried on occasions to bring the luff down off the wind but always found it next to impossible. The expensive car system seems an option but really is a pocket emptier. Could a solution really be as simple as playing with slug attachments? I'm intrigued; going out to play right now
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Old 03-12-2010, 21:11   #39
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I've seen the roller reefing on the f27 etc. and wondered why. My first boat had roller reefing and it was the biggest piece of junk I've ever seen on a boat. There was no way to get a decent setting sail. Ended up with a big bag in the center of the sail and an extremely tight leech if you tried to get any of the bag out. I'd ruined the main stretching the leech by the second time I reefed. I've never been able to figure why anyone would go to all the trouble to invent such a system. It was not easy to reef, absolutely required no load on the sail while you were reefing and it wasn't easy to roll the sail up on a pitching deck in the Molokai Channel. Hope the 'F' boats roller reefing works a whole lot better.

The roller reefing I'm describing is the one that was popular in '40s to '60s that rolled the sail around the boom. This is not the internal roller reefing like the Leisure Furl.
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Old 03-12-2010, 21:22   #40
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sorta thought I was saying I sail this rig. It's full batten and you set the boom square up on the mast and roll the boom round and round.
if you botch it the sail buffs against the stick and you need to kick it back and lower the topping lift vice a verse if your sails pulling aft. when its deeply set the sail looses form but thats pretty damn deep and then form isn't a worry. "The roller reefing I'm describing is the one that was popular in '40s to '60s that rolled the sail around the boom". thought that is what I have. confused again Sabray.
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Old 03-12-2010, 22:30   #41
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I've seen the roller reefing on the f27 etc. and wondered why. My first boat had roller reefing and it was the biggest piece of junk I've ever seen on a boat...The roller reefing I'm describing is the one that was popular in '40s to '60s that rolled the sail around the boom.
Well, yes it is next to impossible to get good sail shape with that system but a hellava lot of cruisers made it work for them in that era, and some still do. And like all systems, nothing is all bad or all good. That system was, and is, so much better than slab reefing for bringing a sail down quickly with a minimum of flaying, especially for a single hander. I used to bring down the main on a 30' Giles in less than ten seconds on returning the mooring; it rolled perfectly neatly every time and only needed the sail cover before the bell gonged beer o'clock. Junk? I don't think so. But I agree it's no good for racing.
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Old 04-12-2010, 06:00   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cfarrar View Post
McLube works wonders on my lugs (with a Tides Marine track).
I don't have that track but,

I use this on my traveler, gen cars, all sails.

I think if you folks tried it you wouldn't change what's not broke!
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Old 04-12-2010, 17:56   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SV Escape Plan View Post
I did the Annapolis to Bermuda race a few years back on a boat with the Harken Bat car system and was not impressed. It is very expensive and has too many moving parts and the size of the cars means you need mast steps to reach the head of the sail because when lowered or reefed the cars stack up. The antal system is marginally better but still has a lot of the same issues and is very expensive too. I prefer the Tides Marine Strongtrack

Tides Marine - Manufacturer of the SureSeal Shaft Seal


It makes hoisting and lowering much easier and is not a complex system with bearings and such.

That being said depending on the size of the boat and set up a properly installed set of sail slides in a clean and lightly lubricated luff groove can be lowered easily off the wind as several have mentioned. What often happens is sailmakers sew the slugs onto the luff with sections of webbing and they make the webbing very tight so that it can not slide in the slot on the luff slug. Then when you go to hoist, the webbing instead of sliding to the top of the slug wants to pull the slug from the bottom and causes the slug to bind in the mast groove. Same thing happens on the way down. A better solution is to attach the slugs to the luff with a loose dyneema lashing of small diameter. Then when you pull down on the luff the lashing slides to the bottom of the slug and pulls the slug down with no binding.

Take a look at this PDF, the only properly attached slugs in my opinion are numbers 3 and 4. Number 2 and 5 are most common and guarantee the slug will bind.

www.sailrite.com/PDF/Slugs%20Slides%20and%20Shackles.pdf


Sorry for taking the thread off of reefing but this is an important consideration and a major source of difficulty with just about any reefing system.
I have a solid wood mast and even this system is over $1000 (track & slides $27.50/ft x 38ft) for me, not including cost of sail modification and installation (total cost quoted me was over $2000 complete). What I have is a simple t-track and a batten-less sail. The main reason these systems were developed were for fully battened sails because the angle of pull caused by battens makes conventional slides bind.
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Old 06-12-2010, 11:37   #44
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" have a solid wood mast and even this system is over $1000 (track & slides $27.50/ft x 38ft) for me, not including cost of sail modification and installation (total cost quoted me was over $2000 "

If you are being quoted $1000 to modify your sail for using a strong track you need to find a new loft. We sent customers sails for this mod all the the time and never spent more than $250. Hell anyone with a little skill and a palm can do it themselves. You are about right on the track, my price was around $24 per foot. Its easily installed on external track.

Why would you give up battens?
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Old 06-12-2010, 17:31   #45
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I wasn't thinking of giving up battens, my present main doesn't have battens. The sail I have now (and the one that will replace it) is a roach-less and batten-less sail designed for blue water cruising. The $27.50/ft was from the strong track web page (included cars), if my main came down any faster than it does now I would have to snub the halyard on the cleat to slow it down (at the very least I would rather but the money towards a new sail, I can't afford both). The additional weight of battens causes slides to jam, my boat was designed without battens 75 years ago and has not had battens since it was launched close to 40 years ago, aside from that I have been advised against having battens for blue water cruising.
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