jib car eliminator

[mrlee]

I want to change over to this set up (pic) but I have a few questions... My present track is about 40 inches or so long, How long should these individual pieces be and exactly where do I secure them to my boat? Half track? a little more forward....behind?
Thanks in advance to you all...I appreciate the skillful advice here...

[Orion Jim]

Track allows you to adjust your lead. This doesn't, or nearly doesn't. More like a barber hauler.

[Matt Johnson]

If you mount your eyes at the front of your current track, you'll have the full range of adjustment of your current horizontal track.

Matt

[Gareth Hughes]

You won't be able too sail close to the wind with that set up, what specific problems are you trying to solve?

[Cruisingscotts]

Just finished a similar setup, per my neighbor who is alot better sailor than me. You put a fixed large ring at the farthes point aft of where your old car was. Use the barbor hauler purchace pictured with the fixed point as close to directly under your clew with the jib out and slack, IE unfurl the jib when its calm and hold it flat more or less. The main load is still on the aft ring, you are just taking in or out a small amount on the hauler to tweek as needed. Per his advice we played around some with lashings/ snatch blocks to various existing points to figure out the ideal location. You should be able to to put your car all the way aft and put a snacth block on the sheet going fwd and mess around to find the right spot.

[Stumble]

This system is absolutely capable of replacing a track, but it also introduces some complexity that most cruising boats don't want to deal with. First it takes two leads an inboard and outboard one, typically side by side. Then there are two lines running from the low friction ring to each of the leads and back to a winch.

The advantage of this is that it allows a good trimmer to adjust the lead up and down, in and out at the same time. It is effectively the same as an XY track (two parallel tracks connected by a sliding athwart ship track) but a lot easier to install.

There are a lot of downsides for a cruising boat however.
1) it takes a winch on each lead to adjust.
2) the point loads are very high
3) it takes a lot of skill and work to get any benefit
4) extra lines and complexity in the cockpit.


If you want to see some good examples of this do a google search for TP-52's they have almost exclusively moved to this system.

[Cruisingscotts]

Originally Posted by Stumble

This system is absolutely capable of replacing a track, but it also introduces some complexity that most cruising boats don't want to deal with. First it takes two leads an inboard and outboard one, typically side by side. Then there are two lines running from the low friction ring to each of the leads and back to a winch.

The advantage of this is that it allows a good trimmer to adjust the lead up and down, in and out at the same time. It is effectively the same as an XY track (two parallel tracks connected by a sliding athwart ship track) but a lot easier to install.

There are a lot of downsides for a cruising boat however.
1) it takes a winch on each lead to adjust.
2) the point loads are very high
3) it takes a lot of skill and work to get any benefit
4) extra lines and complexity in the cockpit.


If you want to see some good examples of this do a google search for TP-52's they have almost exclusively moved to this system.

For crusing the in out could probably be sacrificed unless you are captain OCD. Loading is directly related to the rig and will be proportionite no matter what.

[mrlee]

Thanks for all the replies. I'm aware of the extra lines etc...My jib cars are old and need attention as well as some of the 80 screws are leaking...I saw this set up and really like it. I don't see it being all that difficult to learn how to use and I see the benefits outweighing the negatives...
One question I do have is this: When tacking do I adjust this before then tack and readjust, or tack then adjust.
Sorry if my words aren't exactly right but my idea is to be out there doing what my boat is made to do...sail her. My refit is coming to an end in a month or so and now the running rigging etc. are becoming the focus.
Thanks for all the input...I read and absorb everything you guys (and gals) say on here and I have learned soooo much from you all. THANKS A LOT.

[Matt Johnson]

Unless you have extra winches to bring in the ring after the tack, you'll need to set it up before. You could also cross sheet to the windward winch if needed to do something after the fact.

Matt

[Snowpetrel]

Its a good system. Just make sure there is a way to stop the blocks banging about the place if the jib is flogging. Maybe some bungy cord up to the lifelines or something.

I'd stick a clutch in the line somewhere and a lead block so the windward winch (as Matt suggested) can be used to crank it in.

[Snore]

There is some good advice on how to make this work. I played with the same thing.

Then I got Garhauer adjustable cars. They are not much more, but it eliminates all those hard things bouncing around when you come about.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Orion Jim

Track allows you to adjust your lead. This doesn't, or nearly doesn't. More like a barber hauler.

On the contrary, that system gives you a wider range of adjustment of sheet lead angle than a track does. It also allows you to adjust the lead in three dimensions (in and out, and not just up and down).

Commonly found on top racing boats instead of tracks.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Snowpetrel

Its a good system. Just make sure there is a way to stop the blocks banging about the place if the jib is flogging. Maybe some bungy cord up to the lifelines or something.

I'd stick a clutch in the line somewhere and a lead block so the windward winch (as Matt suggested) can be used to crank it in.

The "blocks" are hard anodized aluminum, and very light, so I haven't seen this problem so far. On the other hand, I don't let my jib flog, either Some shock cord is probably a good idea.


Concerning the control line:

It goes along the rail through stanchion blocks, through a clutch on the rail, to a turning block at the taffrail, and back to a winch.

The clutch is essential so that you can use the winch for other purposes.

Downside is that a clutch on the rail can't be reached from the cockpit of my boat, so you have to crawl out on the lee side deck -- bleh. I wish someone would invent some kind of remote control clutch, at least one which could be operated with a boat hook.

[Snowpetrel]

DH, sounds like you need one of those ronstan Constrictor clutches

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by mrlee

Thanks for all the replies. I'm aware of the extra lines etc...My jib cars are old and need attention as well as some of the 80 screws are leaking...I saw this set up and really like it. I don't see it being all that difficult to learn how to use and I see the benefits outweighing the negatives...
One question I do have is this: When tacking do I adjust this before then tack and readjust, or tack then adjust.
Sorry if my words aren't exactly right but my idea is to be out there doing what my boat is made to do...sail her. My refit is coming to an end in a month or so and now the running rigging etc. are becoming the focus.
Thanks for all the input...I read and absorb everything you guys (and gals) say on here and I have learned soooo much from you all. THANKS A LOT.

Extra lines?

Not compared to remote control jib cars. It only needs one.

On my boat (the one in the photo), I have both inboard and outboard twings, so that I can adjust the sheet lead angle inboard and outboard, besides up and down. This might require one extra line compared to remote controlled jib cars, but I use my staysail sheet, so in my case the number of lines is the same.


Concerning tacking -- you do it just like you do with cars. Leave them locked in position (you need clutches in the control lines) when you tack, and then adjust as necessary. The adjustment is far, far easier than with cars, because there is almost no friction in the system and you have a lot of purchase. So it's quite a bit easier to do it under load with the twing system.


One thing to remember is the huge force which can be imparted to the twings. If the angle is more acute than 120 degrees, then the sheet load is actually multiplied, so it can be tons of force. So the padeyes need to be super robust, and throughbolted. Last year I was using temporarily attached ones screwed to the rails and they ripped out a couple of times. You also need to do the splice properly. This was my first time splicing dyneema, and a couple of my early efforts exploded under load. The key factor, as I found out later, is the bury length. Just double the loop, to get the total length down to what you need, and double the strength at the same time.