Ideas on JSD retrieval with short handed crew

[Breaking Waves]

Originally Posted by BigBeakie

Can you describe the multi element drogue you are referring to? Is it long enough to not pull out of a steep wave face?


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Yes, even a two-element drogue with even 100' between the elements will not pull out of faces like a single element can (it definitely does happen with a single element, but at least in our experience was not super common - we sometimes put a single element out on 600' of rode in the s ocean because of wavelength).. We carried 3 elements, and typically simply used 'spare' anchor rode (yea, nylon is not totally ideal but was what we had - 3/4" on a 37' boat) between them which were in 150' sections (with thimbles). On a larger boat, in the southern ocean, I've done the same with 300' sections of rope.

In theory, you can then add (or recover) elements as you think you need, but we pretty much always put out what we thought we would need for the worst of the forecast and left it alone.

You need to splice a strop thru the initial elements, to carry the road load thru the element, which is not hard.

[BigBeakie]

Ok, that's interesting. Presumably your first drogue in the water is well weighted with chain or mushroom anchor or similar, and then the 2nd/3rd drogues are kept from skipping on the surface by the first weighted drogue element?

Having the ability to adjust the drag force based on the sea state and increase it by adding more elements if conditions deteriorate is very attractive.


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[Breaking Waves]

Originally Posted by BigBeakie

Ok, that's interesting. Presumably your first drogue in the water is well weighted with chain or mushroom anchor or similar, and then the 2nd/3rd drogues are kept from skipping on the surface by the first weighted drogue element?

I’m thinking your mental model of how this works may not be totally on point.

Two observations may help.

When a single element pops out, (in our experience) it pulls horizontally out of a quite steep wave face. It is not “skipping” on a flat ocean top.

And

Used in anger, in serious storm winds, drogue rodes are pretty close to horizontal even when (and whether or not) they have weight on the end. Yea there is some downward angle, but when you have a wave trough behind you, it will bridge across to the wave face behind, looking much more horizontal than say a ground anchor rode even with a lot of scope out.

The two (and more) element solutions stay in place because when one element is close to the vertical surface of a wave face, in a position where it might be able to pull out, the rode from there leads back (near horizontal) into the wave so subsequent elements are deeply buried.

I don’t know if that helps .... but this is more a statistical thing .....
Multiple elements will not be all in the exact right place on a wave at the same time to pull out of face, rather than a down angle sort of thing.

Or, at least that is my empirical observations/understanding from actual use. I’ve never seen say a good physics driven computer simulation of all this.

[Sos]

Breaking Waves,


Can I ask what sort of drogues you used for your 37' boat?
Were they all the same size?


Thanks

[Breaking Waves]

Originally Posted by Sos

Breaking Waves,


Can I ask what sort of drogues you used for your 37' boat?
Were they all the same size?


Thanks

galerider was usually on the end (this we used when only going single element)
2 x Para-tech delta drogue with strops thru the center

We had one more. I don't remember the brand, tried it but never deployed in a storm.

I am not a fan of the Fiorentino guys - think they are slimy and misleading, but their Shark Drogue is set-up with a strop thru the center and (I think, would just need to double check the strength of the strop) can be used as a multi-element immediately without modification.

They were sized by the mfg's to the boat displacement (which was about 18k lbs).

[BigBeakie]

Yes, thanks for the clarification on the mechanics of how the drogues stay effective in a seaway. I did realise that, but am also remembering ( correctly, I hope) the testing that Thinwater has done on drogues where he observed some of them popping out of the surface and not re-engaging in the water.

The other reason to like using a big Galerider type drogue is as a MOB recovery basket.

I concur with your thoughts of the Shark product vs sales tactics of the Fiorentino organisation, a case of nice product - shame about the hype.



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[a64pilot]

Would something like this work?
It works well to pull an anchor up. Maybe it would work to get to the end of a JSD, where you would then retrieve it backwards?
https://www.ironwoodpacific.com/Anch...chor-Retriever

[Breaking Waves]

Originally Posted by BigBeakie

popping out of the surface and not re-engaging in the water.

Yea, I don’t know how to interpret that. They are actually used in anger in such a different environment (big turbulent waves). And when they do “pop out” of wave faces it seems an entirely different dynamic than “surfacing” behavior.

All I can say is that the ones I used did not give me any “popping out” concerns when used as two (or more) elements, nor any “surfacing” concern when used as single elements.

Probably you do prefer drogues which exhibit stable towing behavior in these tests - spinning or yawing would not be desirable, but I never saw any of that with the ones I used.

There is unfortunately a lack in good applied science regarding drogues. The actual use case (significant storm waves) is difficult to model and difficult to test in. So we are mostly left with personal experiences.

[Sos]

Originally Posted by Breaking Waves

galerider was usually on the end (this we used when only going single element)
2 x Para-tech delta drogue with strops thru the center

We had one more. I don't remember the brand, tried it but never deployed in a storm.

I am not a fan of the Fiorentino guys - think they are slimy and misleading, but their Shark Drogue is set-up with a strop thru the center and (I think, would just need to double check the strength of the strop) can be used as a multi-element immediately without modification.

They were sized by the mfg's to the boat displacement (which was about 18k lbs).

Thanks for the info.


I like the idea of this method since you can increase drag when needed and keep the speed right. I worry that a JSD could slow you down too much. Sailing a cat I want to keep speed up but in control. Also can see how much easier retrieval is.