How Do You Tie a Double Sheet Bend?

[Seaworthy Lass]

The double sheet bend is one of those 'bread and butter' knots. It has been around for donkeys years. Super easy to tie (can be done easily even blindfolded and when you are clutching something in one hand), it is apparently reasonably secure and works with lines of different relative diameter. What's not to like about it!

Well I am bursting with curiosity. How do CF members tie a double sheet bend? Is it as shown below, or as in post #2.

If you can post any other info like how (book, class, scouts, another person, internet etc) and when you learnt it and in what situations you have used it, and how often you use it that would be fabulous.

Have you ever had any problems with it? If so, what?

If you don't use it, what do you use when you need to secure lines of different diameter?

The poll is anonymous .

First option:

[Seaworthy Lass]

Second option:

[DaBod]

I've always tied it as depicted in your first picture.

Both it and its little brother (sheet bend) are phenomenally handy as far as I am concerned, and I use them on the boat, at campsites, around the house, etc.

I recently used a single sheet bend in a pinch and ended up placing quite a load on it while using the sheet winches to get the boat onto a trailer (long story). It held beautifully, and didn't require a fid or marlinspike to untie...just a bit of working by hand and it loosened right up.

[OldFrog75]

I've always tied it like #1 but #2 looks like it might be more secure. Are you sure #2 is not called something else?

[StuM]

Just realised what it is that bothers me about your version 2.

The thinner line clamps down on both turns in the original version. In your version, it only clamps down on the final tuck so there is a smaller turning radius. That suggest to me a lower breaking point.




It also provides less friction bearing surface from the primary strain through the thinner line which could mean more potential for slippage.

And as I've said before, I no longer use it. I prefer the Zeppelin, with a double turn on the thinner line if the diameters are very different.

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by OldFrog75

I've always tied it like #1 but #2 looks like it might be more secure. Are you sure #2 is not called something else?

Ashley Book of Knots calls both a double sheet bend (StuM found this for me).

Version 1 is under 'Bends' and is #1434.
Version 2 is hidden under 'Occupational knots: The Weaver' and is #488.

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by StuM

Just realised what it is that bothers me about your version 2.

The thinner line clamps down on both turns in the original version. In your version, it only clamps down on the final tuck so there is a smaller turning radius. That suggest to me a lower breaking point.

I would disagree. The thinner line clamps down on the first loop diagonally (contact like this seems to work exceptionally well in other knots) and then clamps over the tail - two clamps in total instead of one.

My gut reaction is that clamping a single line twice is better than clamping two adjacent lines once.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

I would disagree. The thinner line clamps down on the first loop diagonally (contact like this seems to work exceptionally well in other knots) and then clamps over the tail - two clamps in total instead of one.

My gut reaction is that clamping a single line twice is better than clamping two adjacent lines once.

You may well be right - there are so many variables. I guess the only way to tell is with a load tester

[Seaworthy Lass]

More feedback would be great to work out what is in current use with the Double Sheet bend and how often it is used .

I am doing some rough trials on simple bends just using our winches on board and are posting results on the International Guild of Knot Tyers forum. An experienced member suggested the Lapp bend was better than the sheet bend and another member requested the Simple Simon's Under be check, hence their inclusion.

This was the first post in that thread:

I am testing out the following simple bends for slippage amount:

Lapp bend
Double Lapp bend version 1 (Don called this the jammable version)
Double Lapp bend version 2
Single sheet bend
Double sheet bend #1434
Double sheet bend #488
Asher's Simple Simon Under

Knowing how much a bend can slip before it sets is very useful information, if only to tell us how long a tail we need to leave.

This is dependent not just on the particular bend, but on the material and diameter/diameters selected for the line. My particular interest is finding the best simple bend when double braided polyester lines are used and are different in diameter.

Note: The amount of initial slipping does not necessarily tell us anything about knot strength. A knot could slip substantially before it bites well.

My testing resources are unfortunately limited so this is just very preliminary work, but not much information currently seems to be available and curiosity has got the better of me.

As a side issue, I will also comment later on how easy I found the bends to undo after the load was applied (surprising results).

I will copy a few posts over from the other thread to fill in what prompted all of this. I have done one test on each today so I will then post photos of the 7 bends dressed and then after load has been applied (may be slow as internet is weak).

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by StuM

.....
And as I've said before, I no longer use it. I prefer the Zeppelin, with a double turn on the thinner line if the diameters are very different.

Stu, I have done a bit of hunting to try and find more info about the Zeppelin with an extra turn that you use.

I have found nothing but good reports about it, even if the line diameter is dramatically different. There was a photo just posted on the knot tying forum using very different diameters that I have tied and will post next. It has no official name, but Asymmetric Zeppelin was one of the descriptions and fits it well.

Doubling the initial loop in the thinner line is another alternative.

In similar sized line both ends can be tucked or both loops doubled for extra security.

Comments from Roo about the ordinary Zeppelin are glowing:
"Also known as the Rosendahl Bend, it's perhaps the best way to connect two ropes that there is. It's exceptionally secure and shake-resistant in all materials and its perfect symmetry makes it simple to check. It's also remarkably easy to untie after heavy strain, even when wet."

Would be so good to have some load tests done and see what this bend and the variations are capable of. It all seems anecdotal at the moment with feedback from few people. Or has this been done and I simply can't find info? If this bend is so good why is is not routinely in use? It is surprisingly easy to tie (even with eyes shut) with a little practice.

We seem to be using knots from a few centuries ago designed for use with natural fibres. These are not necessarily the best ones to use for lines commonly used nowadays like double braid polyester. No one seems to be loading testing and checking.

I really struggle knowing what us best when lines are of different diameter. Stu was the first person I have come across using a modified version of the Zepellin for this purpose.
What do other members use? Anyone tying line together out there?

This is the Asymmetric Zeppelin:

[Seaworthy Lass]

And this is how the Asymmetric Zeppelin looks in line of vastly different diameter. The basis for this bend is twin overhands and this is clearly seen here:

[Seaworthy Lass]

And with the thinner loop doubled initially instead (not named yet, but perhaps Half Double Zeppelin may be appropriate ):

[StuM]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

Would be so good to have some load tests done and see what this bend and the variations are capable of. It all seems anecdotal at the moment with feedback from few people. Or has this been done and I simply can't find info?

Did you following the thread when EStarzinger first got his load cell?

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ml#post1431194

"I just tested the Zeppelin bend, an equally easy knot to tie, and it did not slip and breaks at 69% of rated line strength. It seems a better choice for 'everyday' use. Note: it does slip in bare dyneema."

[StuM]

I think the main reason why the Zeppelin and similar are not used much is purely habit and tradition. The same old knots are just passed on from generation to generation of sailors without question.

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by StuM

Did you following the thread when EStarzinger first got his load cell?

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ml#post1431194

"I just tested the Zeppelin bend, an equally easy knot to tie, and it did not slip and breaks at 69% of rated line strength. It seems a better choice for 'everyday' use. Note: it does slip in bare dyneema."

I came in at the end of it. I thought only Dyneema was being tested, so I will go back and have a good read of it now (thanks for the link).

Have Evan's results been presented anywhere in one doc? I found his pdf on the seven essential knots sailors should know, but although the sheet bend (incl double) made in on the list, the Zeppelin didn't.