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Old 19-11-2012, 10:10   #76
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Re: Cost for replacement sails?

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i plan on wrapping the sails up in christmas paper.......thats the wife and kids presents sorted

Hopefully your health insurance covers that type of bodily harm...
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Old 21-11-2012, 06:05   #77
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Re: Cost for replacement sails?

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You're kidding right? Can you back this up that China imports from us even near the amount we send them?
,,,,and what would happen if everyone in the US bought US?...Well first off, we would be at around 4% unemployment rather than almost 9%. Again as pointed out by other members, you don't live here. We saw prosperity in the late 80's, early 90's. Trade has changed. We saw it happen.
I'll try it again. Try to imagine if everyone who does not live in the US, but buys US products (as I do for example), decides no longer to buy US products. What would that do to the US?
Trade does go both ways. Not always in obvious and intuitive ways, but it does. It must. If it doesn't someone is getting something for nothing. Think about it.
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Old 21-11-2012, 10:05   #78
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Re: Cost for replacement sails?

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I'll try it again. Try to imagine if everyone who does not live in the US, but buys US products (as I do for example), decides no longer to buy US products. What would that do to the US?
Trade does go both ways. Not always in obvious and intuitive ways, but it does. It must. If it doesn't someone is getting something for nothing. Think about it.
You don't understand economics evidently. This is about balanced trade, not about purchase of products. Since you haven't stated where you are, your point is moot. If you are in China and every one quits buy US products, that is only 25% of loss.

You talk about something for nothing. do you think those products sent here are free? They are not. In the US someone must pay for those products that were imported into the country, along with the tariffs.

Explain to me how either side would get something for nothing.

You also don't understand buying something for $1.00 is not equal to people buying $4.00 here. Where is the equality in that?

We are not talking scale wide, we are talking about specific countries which export millions into this country, but import thousands from this country. When the dollar amount isn't equal, the economics do not work out like you say.

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Old 24-11-2012, 04:42   #79
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Re: Cost for replacement sails?

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You don't understand economics evidently.
To me sou sound like someone saying "you don't understand geography evidently" after I pointed out that no serious geographer still believes the earth is flat.
Hearing that I don't understand economics is a bit much from someone who stated that:
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You don't realize that 80% of the imports in the US are Chinese.
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I tell you what. When your largest retailer in your country, is selling your country out (this store has the 22nd largest economy in the world....yes in the world) talk to me then. This store buys 82% of everything that comes out of China.
Because, you see, all that what you stated in those paragraphs is bullshit. And I can prove it if you want.

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This is about balanced trade, not about purchase of products. Since you haven't stated where you are, your point is moot. If you are in China and every one quits buy US products, that is only 25% of loss.
I wonder how "were I am" is relevant. But I am in Europe. At the moment the Southern European countries are all running a trade surplus. Still they have high unemployment. How would that be possible if importing less would mean more jobs...
Anyway. What would you think would happen of China decided no longer to buy anything made in the US? What if every other country decided to do that? Think about it.
The real test of wether something is a good idea is imagining that everyone does it.
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Explain to me how either side would get something for nothing.
Suppose you buy a lawn mower from your neighbor for an IOU. The neighbor never cashes in his IOU. You got the law mower effectively for nothing.

The trade imbalance exists because the Chinese are accepting US IOUs, and for the moment just sitting on them. They will probably cash them in sometime, at which time the trade will balance itself. If they don't, the US get something for nothing.
They are cashing them in though. If you look at the statistics you will see that both imports and exports between China and the US are increasing. Now what do you think would happen to the exports of the US to China if the US suddenly stopped buying things from China?
What would happen with the people producing the goods and services China buys from the US?
BTW. The census data you pointed at only concerns itself with goods. You need to consider the complete trade balance, goods and services, as they matter too. Haven't you noticed that there are a lot more Chinese tourists around these days? The people in the tourist industry will thank you if the Chinese would stay away because of a successful buy American campaign...
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Old 24-11-2012, 13:47   #80
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Re: Cost for replacement sails?

Can we bring this thread back on track please, it's about the price of sails, not world economics.

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Old 24-11-2012, 18:07   #81
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Re: Cost for replacement sails?

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snip....all the irrelevant information
You evidently do not know how the NAFTA affected trade in our country. Also you have some inclination that products are sent here for free, which isn't the case.

Come here, and I could show you where the 80% is, but the bandwidth here isn't large enough for me to continue this discussion.

You keep believing what you think is the truth. It however isn't.

If not about sails, there will not be a further reply.

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Old 25-11-2012, 14:07   #82
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We had new sails made in So. California by a loft that made the working sails locally and outsourced the gennaker to China for our boat prior to sailing offshore. Then we had the (still new) sails resewn (the cut/shape was great) by Port Townsend Sails. Hasse & Co. did a terrific job strengthening and reiforcing, doing hand-sewn cringles etc. The sails have now made it through 4 years in the tropics, 18,000 bluewater miles, gale force winds, 65-knot squalls, and everything else Mom Nature and we ourselves could throw at them. We've resewn a couple of UV-weakened seams on the roller furling covers, but otherwise they're still fantastic. We think our investment in the work of Pt. Townsend Sails has been a good one.

Our only recurrent problem is more about rigging: the lazy jib sheet draped/pulled/whatever across the furled staysail wears through the Sunbrella cover in about 1,000 nm. We've tried Different ultra-slick chafe-resistant materials only slightly better results. It's getting worrisome....
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Old 25-11-2012, 14:15   #83
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Re: Cost for replacement sails?

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Originally Posted by fugue View Post
We had new sails made in So. California by a loft that made the working sails locally and outsourced the gennaker to China for our boat prior to sailing offshore. Then we had the (still new) sails resewn (the cut/shape was great) by Port Townsend Sails. Hasse & Co. did a terrific job strengthening and reiforcing, doing hand-sewn cringles etc. The sails have now made it through 4 years in the tropics, 18,000 bluewater miles, gale force winds, 65-knot squalls, and everything else Mom Nature and we ourselves could throw at them. We've resewn a couple of UV-weakened seams on the roller furling covers, but otherwise they're still fantastic. We think our investment in the work of Pt. Townsend Sails has been a good one.
...
I'm a bit lost here. You bought new sails and then had to take them to another loft to be re-sewn? Why didn't the original loft make them to your specification?
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Old 25-11-2012, 17:29   #84
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Re: Cost for replacement sails?

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I'm a bit lost here. You bought new sails and then had to take them to another loft to be re-sewn? Why didn't the original loft make them to your specification?
I was wondering the same thing! Why on earth would someone go through all that bother? I've put sails on customer boats that have gone tens of thousands of miles with no complaint. The key is properly specifying the sails to begin with. It's not rocket science.
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Old 25-11-2012, 22:08   #85
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Re: Cost for replacement sails?

'Cause we'd never laid eyes on real cruising sails before (sailing to Mexico and along the West Coast isn't bluewater cruising). Once we had been educated and had seen the difference between a hand-sewn cringle and a stamped grommet we realized that our beautifully shaped, extremely efficient and fast sails from So Cal probably wouldn't make it to the other side of the Pacific. We'd looked at sails and read books in So Cal, but there was at least one gap in our knowledge and this was a big one. Might add that we had sailed along the West Coast and even did a bit of handicap racing in our Pacific Seacraft 37 with sails by the same So Cal maker for 20 years. Hence we thought we knew enough. Since sails and rigging are two things you gotta have to cross an ocean, we decided to go with a loft (Pt. Townsend Sails) that had a ton of real bluewater miles on its products (and sailmakers). It wasn't really all that expensive-we wound up paying about what one would expect for a top-quality suit of true cruising sails between the original maker and the beefing up that Hasse and Co. did. So far we've only had the one recurrent repair, and that's not the fault of the sailmaker (either of them).
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Old 25-11-2012, 22:32   #86
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Re: Cost for replacement sails?

We've seen some pretty lightly built sails coming out of Southern Cal. While we were in Mexico we spoke with some people that had a main I suggested they replace before leaving for the South Pacific. A couple of days into the voyage the main shredded beyond repair. Another sail from the same loft survived all the way to Australia but the boat owner, a former sailmaker himself, twin plied the leech and performed several other modifications before they left. I gave him some materials and moral support.

You mention never having seen the difference between a pressed ring and and hand sewn cringle. In terms of strength, we prefer a webbed on ring over either of those for a mainsail clew or tack. About the only way you will have a properly webbed on ring fail is with the assistance of an electric winch combined with an inattentive operator. The sewn ring may very well fail sooner. A Rutgerson SuperRing with proper webbing strainers works quite well for reef cringles at luff and leech.

A funny but sadly true story relates to the people in the first example I cited. Their sail was built at a local loft, and not surprisingly was quite expensive. They spoke to the workers, who commented they were enjoying the project, as they rarely built cruising sails.

The second example I cited made it to Australia. The owner ordered a new main and Strong Track system from us and is happily cruising Indonesia after some time in New Guinea.
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Old 25-11-2012, 22:56   #87
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Re: Cost for replacement sails?

In 30 years I've never had a stamped grommet fail on me.

My problem with cheap sails was generally the cheap thread. Several batten pockets have come asunder and self destructed.
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