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Old 14-09-2011, 10:59   #31
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Re: Muriatic Acid in Head - How Do You Get It Into Intake?

how do you all winterize the Lectrasan? If you use the pink stuff, can you then do something in the spring - such as an acid soak to remove the pink - so that I don't need to drain the thing dry - a nasty prospect. I don't want to harm the electrodes in the unit.
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Old 14-09-2011, 12:32   #32
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Re: Muriatic Acid in Head - How Do You Get It Into Intake?

Raritan warns against putting antifreeze in it, 'cuz if ANY is left when you recommission in the spring it'll damage the electrodes.

Draining it dry as directed in the manual doesn't have to be a nasty job. It's a flow-through device, so what goes into it pushes an equal amount out, making it very easy to flush out. Run it a couple of times to make sure everything in it has been treated...then--without running it--put GALLONS of clean water through it via the toilet. Now, the only thing you have to drain is clean water.
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Old 14-09-2011, 12:37   #33
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Re: Muriatic Acid in Head - How Do You Get It Into Intake?

Peggy, thanks for the reply. I contacted Raritan today and they commented that one can use the pink stuff, but you need to be very thorough in flushing it with fresh water - 20 flushes - before re-commisioning or running it. Getting this wrong will damage the electrode plates.
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Old 14-09-2011, 13:11   #34
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Re: Muriatic Acid in Head - How Do You Get It Into Intake?

just a critical note... bleach and muriatic together create mustard gas. colorless and lethal.

anyone who has poured anything out of a gallon jug knows it splashes everywhere when not careful. make sure you remove any and all cleaning supplies (especially those with sodium or calcium hypochloride (bleach) from the area and if you have been doing any cleaning with bleach based products those areas are cleaned well.

2 notes.

1. the residue from soft scrub with bleach leaves enough sodium hypochloride on the applied surface to react with the hydrachloric (muriatic).

2. hydrochloric acid can have some pretty extreme and rapid affects. choking and temporary blindness are very common. in my opinion, there isnt enough ventilation on any boat to work carelessly with either sodium hypochloride or hydrachloric. GO SLOW! NEVER NEVER NEVER add water to muriatic (add the muriatic to water). and make sure you know your boat and have nothing blocking your path to the cockpit.

it isnt likely that you do any serious damage but if a reaction catches you unaware you may be hunched over choking with very blurry vision and need to make a quick exit. tripping over a tool box or whatever can have serious consequences.

lastly, if you find yourself overwhelmed by the fumes, it is best to lay on your back and slowly establish normal breathing with your eyes closed. if you end up with a headache, sit in dim light and wait it out. if any of these symptoms continue for more than 30 minutes... medical attention.

wow... look at me all serious.

question: what is invisible and smells like carrots?

answer: bunny farts!

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Old 14-09-2011, 19:34   #35
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Re: Muriatic Acid in Head - How Do You Get It Into Intake?

Seems to me that it would be a whole lot easier to flush it out when you flush out the tank and the rest of the system in preparation to winterize...'cuz you're gonna have enough to do to get it started again with the right level of salinity without having to mess with flushing it out 20 times first.

And btw...speaking of TANKS and winterizing... The tank should be pumped out, then VERY throughly flushed out to remove any sludge in preparation to winterize. It's not hard to do:

After pumpout, put enough water into the tank to cover the bottom to a depth of 4-6"...it needs to go into the tank via the deck pumpout 'cuz that sends it into the tank at the bottom to stir up any sludge. Pump that out. Once is enough after every pumpout, but several times a year--and ESPECIALLY in preparation for extended layup!--that should be repeated until only clean water is being pumped out. Before layup, there's one more step: put water in the tank again, and this time open the thru-hull and run the macerator to rinse it and the plumbing connected to it.

If you have a washdown pump, it's even easier to us it to flush out the tank offshore: dump the tank...then use the washdown nozzle to put several inches of water into the tank via the deck pumpout fitting...and restart the macerator. Continue to let the water run till the macerator is only dumping clean water.

To add antifreeze (ONLY the potable non-toxic "pink stuff," never automotive), simply disconnect the head intake line from the thru-hull, stick it into the jug of AF and flush the toilet to pull it through the whole system and push it into the tank.

If your toilet uses onboard pressurized flush water, the toilet is winterized when the fresh water system is winterized...so just pour antifreeze for the tank down the toilet.
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Old 15-09-2011, 07:37   #36
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Re: Muriatic Acid in Head - How Do You Get It Into Intake?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ssanzone View Post
bleach and muriatic together create mustard gas.
Bleach (3 to 6% sodium hypochlorite in water) and muriatic acid (20% or so hydrogen chloride in water) react to make chlorine gas not mustard gas.
[see the safety section of the Wikipedia article on hydrochloric acid.]

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Old 15-09-2011, 08:12   #37
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Re: Muriatic Acid in Head - How Do You Get It Into Intake?

Hmmm... Bleach and ammonia make chlorine gas...bleach and vinegar make chlorine gas...and apparently so do bleach and hydrochloric (muriatic) acid.

Either that's a lot of combinations that make the same gas, or "chlorine gas" is a generic name that covers several...I suspect the latter.

I knew that bleach and ammonia make ammonium chloride gas, but have never seen the specific name for bleach and vinegar, only know that it's a "chlorine gas" that's even more lethal than ammonium chloride.

Does anyone know the specific names for all the gasses created by mixing bleach (chlorine) and other products?
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Old 15-09-2011, 09:46   #38
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Re: Muriatic Acid in Head - How Do You Get It Into Intake?

yeah... oops, it is not mustard gas.

i spent much of my teen years working with these chemicals. i emailed my old boss to be reminded what the 'other' gas name bleach and muriatic goes by.

peg, you are correct that 'chlorine gas' is a catch all for most chemical reactions involving sodium hypochloride.

-steve
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Old 15-09-2011, 09:56   #39
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Re: Muriatic Acid in Head - How Do You Get It Into Intake?

Bleach and ammonia mixed together do make ammonium chloride which is a solid; not too bad a compound which is sometimes used as a food additive or a fertilizer. Along the way they make chloramine, dichloramine, and nitrogen trichloride. All three are a bit nasty and things you do not want to be around. [Wikipedia article "Bleach"]

Peggy, I've got your book. It has been quite helpful.

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Old 15-09-2011, 10:24   #40
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Re: Muriatic Acid in Head - How Do You Get It Into Intake?

NH3 = ammonia
HCl = hydrochloric (muriatic = impure) acid
NaOCl = sodium hypochlorite (bleach)
Cl = chlorine
Cl2 = chlorine gas
NH2Cl = chloramine
N2H4 = hydrazine
NaCl = sodium chloride or salt
Acetic Acid (Ac) = CH3COO (vinegar)
H2O = water

Liquid bleach in the presence of ammonia decomposes as follows:

NaOCl → NaOH + HOCl → HCl + O (in other words, bleach decomposes to hydrochloric acid and oxygen). The sodium hydroxide (NaOH) remains in the liquid.

Then the products react to create chlorine gas (CL2) and chloramine vapor (2NH2Cl):

NaOCl + 2HCl → Cl2 + NaCl + H2O (chlorine gas, salt, and water)

and

2NH3 + Cl2 → 2NH2Cl

(Note, with excess ammonia you can also create hydrazine (2NH3 + NaOCl → N2H4 + NaCl + H2O), where hydrazine is an explosive liquid (rocket fuel).

The same disassociation of chlorine applies to mixing with hydrochloric (muriatic) acid, so:

HOCl + HCl ↔ H2O + Cl2 (chlorine gas and water)

And with vinegar:

2HOCl + 2HCH3COO ↔ Cl2 + 2H2O + 2CH3OO- (chlorine gas, water, Ac ions)

The "chlorine gas" that is formed by all of these reactions is exactly the same thing, Cl2, with exactly the same toxicity. Each of the reactions also has additional products that are formed, that have different toxicity levels, smells, and visual appearance.
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