Fresh water makers best price and performance?

[HappyMdRSailor]

Originally Posted by Tellie

I had a very lovely woman from CF come up to my booth at the boat show">Miami boat show a few years ago. She said in all seriousness. "You don't look at all in real life like you do in your picture on the CF"
Collagen is a wonderful thing.


Halden Marine Services | Marine Watermakers, Solar Panels, Wind Generators

HHAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!

That's an awesome story!!!

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by Tellie

I had a very lovely woman from CF come up to my booth at the Miami boat show a few years ago. She said in all seriousness. "You don't look at all in real life like you do in your picture on the CF"
Collagen is a wonderful thing.


Halden Marine Services | Marine Watermakers, Solar Panels, Wind Generators

As my granddad used to say " get me my hip boots".

[carstenb]

Originally Posted by Tellie

I had a very lovely woman from CF come up to my booth at the Miami boat show a few years ago. She said in all seriousness. "You don't look at all in real life like you do in your picture on the CF"
Collagen is a wonderful thing.


Halden Marine Services | Marine Watermakers, Solar Panels, Wind Generators

Botox sure does help - doesn't it? Of course maybe she wasn't wearing her glasses

[Badsanta]

He looks just like that. A couple of boat show painkillers and using Popeyes squincky eye it was a match. Lol

Sent from my SM-G860P using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[Ribbit]

Originally Posted by Akapeterc

Since I'm not going to be living on board for possibly another 18 months I think I will be better to wait and get a new system closer to then.

I think that's a smart move. To me the whole watermaker field is on the brink of a huge shake up.

Personally I am looking at starting to live aboard and start cruising, within the next 6 to 10 months (depends on yacht purchase, what it needs, how long those needs take - e.g. getting Coppercoat below the waterline - etc). Initially I will probably restrict myself to Southern Spain, Portugal, Balearics, Madeira, Gran Canaria region (easy and cheap flights back 'home' for visiting my elderly father frequently - I can get the dry heat and salt air that I need, pop home for short visits and get back before the health benefits wear off).

A watermaker at some point is definitely on the 'To Do' list. But, I do hope that the new membrane technology from Lockheed Martin, is going to impact the market SOON (it is going to massively increase demand for watermakers, and unless manufacturers get their act together and associated selling prices DOWN significantly, I suspect the Chinese will be taking ALL of their market off them). It should be SOON, because the membrane has been basically ready for Market for a while now:

Lockheed Martin Achieves Patent for Perforene? Filtration Solution, Moves Closer to Affordable Water Desalination · Lockheed Martin

Oh and I think if Lockheed Martin don't get their act together with Perforene FAST, others will likely come out with equivalents (e.g. the Chinese). A truly vast World Market is about to be created (just think of the impact small watermakers will have in places like Africa), and it is going to have to be at prices that the Third World can afford to pay.

When I do want to bite the bullet on a watermaker, the first person I hope to talk to, is Tellie.

[capt ric]

We will all look like tellies pic sooner or later, just a matter of time

[zboss]

Originally Posted by Ribbit

I suspect the Chinese will be taking ALL of their market off them).

That is a competitive possibility. They have incredible world-wide supply chain capability. For example... look at this:

Modular Water maker 300LPD

It uses Italian made motors and components.

I've also seen people say how you absolutely should not order Chinese made "Solbian" panels because they are inferior but when you compare $1200 for a 137 watt solbian to a $120 (including shipping and duties) 100 watt chinese knock off, its hard to say yes to the Solbian.

[travellerw]

Originally Posted by zboss

That is a competitive possibility. They have incredible world-wide supply chain capability. For example... look at this:

Modular Water maker 300LPD

It uses Italian made motors and components.

I've also seen people say how you absolutely should not order Chinese made "Solbian" panels because they are inferior but when you compare $1200 for a 137 watt solbian to a $120 (including shipping and duties) 100 watt chinese knock off, its hard to say yes to the Solbian.

Yes, but my experience running a supply company that imports Chinese products.. It takes at least 3 generations for them to have a mature product. They also believe its OK to use customers as test beds.

Unless they have some outside North American influence, then the products (watermakers) they release anytime soon will be a nightmare.

Since Spectra's patents have now expired, I was hoping a North American company would take notice and start the move to China directing the quality control. It hasn't happened yet, but those patents only expired at the beginning of the year!

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by zboss

That is a competitive possibility. They have incredible world-wide supply chain capability. For example... look at this:

Modular Water maker 300LPD

It uses Italian made motors and components.

I've also seen people say how you absolutely should not order Chinese made "Solbian" panels because they are inferior but when you compare $1200 for a 137 watt solbian to a $120 (including shipping and duties) 100 watt chinese knock off, its hard to say yes to the Solbian.

That water maker is not in any way efficient I did the math and at an approx 30 amps per gallon on 12 volt I don't see to much market share going that way.

[zboss]

Originally Posted by newhaul

That water maker is not in any way efficient I did the math and at an approx 30 amps per gallon on 12 volt I don't see to much market share going that way.

That wasn't really the point - you can get them to make whatever you want by specifying your requirements, even down to the individual components you select.

I had a great experience buying my engine parts from China through Alibaba. For example, I bought a complete new engine seal kit for $116 including shipping and duty direct from China and it got to my boat in 3 days. Where our diesel company wanted $300 just for the head gasket.

Everyone assumes that China = low quality but that is simply not true anymore. Yes, there is cheap Chinese crap on the market but there is good stuff too, this is why so many companies that ARE associated with quality go to China.

Look at Apple for example. I dare you to say they don't build a highly refined product.

I don't think people understand how much of a powerhouse China has become as far as efficiency in manufacturing and distribution.

That is all...

[StuM]

Originally Posted by newhaul

That water maker is not in any way efficient I did the math and at an approx 30 amps amp hrs per gallon on 12 volt I don't see to much market share going that way.

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ml#post1933764

Just sayin'

[Tellie]

Originally Posted by Ribbit

I think that's a smart move. To me the whole watermaker field is on the brink of a huge shake up.

Personally I am looking at starting to live aboard and start cruising, within the next 6 to 10 months (depends on yacht purchase, what it needs, how long those needs take - e.g. getting Coppercoat below the waterline - etc). Initially I will probably restrict myself to Southern Spain, Portugal, Balearics, Madeira, Gran Canaria region (easy and cheap flights back 'home' for visiting my elderly father frequently - I can get the dry heat and salt air that I need, pop home for short visits and get back before the health benefits wear off).

A watermaker at some point is definitely on the 'To Do' list. But, I do hope that the new membrane technology from Lockheed Martin, is going to impact the market SOON (it is going to massively increase demand for watermakers, and unless manufacturers get their act together and associated selling prices DOWN significantly, I suspect the Chinese will be taking ALL of their market off them). It should be SOON, because the membrane has been basically ready for Market for a while now:

Lockheed Martin Achieves Patent for Perforene? Filtration Solution, Moves Closer to Affordable Water Desalination · Lockheed Martin

Oh and I think if Lockheed Martin don't get their act together with Perforene FAST, others will likely come out with equivalents (e.g. the Chinese). A truly vast World Market is about to be created (just think of the impact small watermakers will have in places like Africa), and it is going to have to be at prices that the Third World can afford to pay.

When I do want to bite the bullet on a watermaker, the first person I hope to talk to, is Tellie.

Thanks Ribbit, I'll be more than happy to talk to you whenever you are ready.
As far as Perforene, this is being observed and has been talked about for a few years now. These things don't escape the bigger players. I think it is still a long way off before it will work it's way down to a much lower price boat based watermaker. It's implications at a larger scale is going to be far more attractive to those first making it available to the world. There are a lot of things going on in the desalinization world. Unfortunately for us boaters we are way down on the scale of importance as we are a pretty small group and boat based systems have always been a small niche. But if it does become feasible to scale I'd love to sell Perforene watermakers at a lower cost. I'm fine with that. I believe as quantity of sales increased the numbers would balance out on sales alone. I'd rather sell three things at $10 than one at $20. But where this would be great for us is our customer base would certainly increase. Perforene is not going to reduce the issues normally associated with watermakers such as spares, repairs, and most importantly service. My return customers are my business's bread and butter not the one time sale. Anything that will increase that I'm on board with.
Always feel free to call me anytime you just want to chat about watermakers.


Halden Marine Services | Marine Watermakers, Solar Panels, Wind Generators

[Tellie]

Originally Posted by travellerw

Yes, but my experience running a supply company that imports Chinese products.. It takes at least 3 generations for them to have a mature product. They also believe its OK to use customers as test beds.

Unless they have some outside North American influence, then the products (watermakers) they release anytime soon will be a nightmare.

Since Spectra's patents have now expired, I was hoping a North American company would take notice and start the move to China directing the quality control. It hasn't happened yet, but those patents only expired at the beginning of the year!

I think it's scale. Even if China could cut the cost 50%-70% the sales wouldn't much warrant the ROI. We have new technology in pumps right now that are even more efficient. Heck we can make 125 gallons per hour now using a Honda EU2000 with Watts to spare.

Halden Marine Services | Marine Watermakers, Solar Panels, Wind Generators

[zboss]

Originally Posted by Tellie

I think it's scale. Even if China could cut the cost 50%-70% the sales wouldn't much warrant the ROI. We have new technology in pumps right now that are even more efficient. Heck we can make 125 gallons per hour now using a Honda EU2000 with Watts to spare.

Halden Marine Services | Marine Watermakers, Solar Panels, Wind Generators

Well yes... thats really the point of introducing low end competition. It's increasingly difficult for a company like Spectra to legitimize costs that are 3x that of the competition, even if the competition is facing low ROI. We face this in IT all day. Consumers will almost always choose the cheaper option when you cannot articulate why you charge so much more. As the Chinese get better at articulating their position, you will find it more difficult to sell yours. If history is any indication, the Chinese will get exponentially faster as understanding the market and providing a solid value proposition in the watermaker market.

What is "good enough" vs. "the best"?

90% of consumers will go for the "good enough". The average guy buying a boat these days could care less about watermakers at $6000... the 300K boat he just bought will sit at the dock most of the year fine without it.

But when Hunter says "we can put a watermaker on your boat for $1500"? Well, that is a no-brainer.

That leaves long range cruisers that have the money for a 50+ foot brand new boat that don't care about price, they will buy "the best". That's a small market.

The boats in the 40-50 foot range with tankage over 200ish (size for discussion sake) gallons will care less about watermakers because of the growing availability of cheap fresh water pretty much everywhere.

That leaves those folks with boats 35-50 feet that do not have 200 gallons of water wondering... "how much better is the $6000 spectra water maker? Is it that much better than the Chinese $2000 watermaker"?

"How much better exactly?"

If what I see this season in Chinese solar panels here in Florida -where pretty much everyone is considering or is buying cheap panels from Alibaba- is indicative of the change we could see happening in watermakers... I cannot see how Spectra could keep their current business viable in the next 10 years.

[SV THIRD DAY]

Originally Posted by zboss

If what I see this season in Chinese solar panels here in Florida -where pretty much everyone is considering or is buying cheap panels from Alibaba- is indicative of the change we could see happening in watermakers... I cannot see how Spectra could keep their current business viable in the next 10 years.

This isn't a Spectra thing...it's a thing that any/every manufacturer of any/every product here in the United States will be dealing with in the next 10yrs.

But remember what the experts said that about Japan, until Japan crashed. Anyone that thinks China doesn't have major problems that make the USA's problems look like a cake walk, hasn't been paying attention.

Iphone..Oh ya, I have one or two people at every boat show that want to control their water maker from their Iphone or Ipad...I do the only sane thing and send those folks over to Tellie's booth pronto....