Volvo Saildrive Problem: not engaging forward nor in reverse

[AnamCara-A]

Stein, your English is as good as any Australians. Good on ya mate.

[AnamCara-A]

Thanks to everyone who has posted on this site. When the Saildrive was split from the engine and I saw the springs and shattered plate at the bottom of the housings,...I was ecstatic , something like seeing your misses undressed for the first time! I had already received the damper plate from Nanni on spec and so the sight of the loose items confirmed what you guys said. With the assistance from the local MarineEngineering company at Mackay Marina, in particular Ashley, the replacement process to engine running again was only 1.5 hours. I guess I must have been a little heavy handed over the months changing from fwd to reverse to do such damage,... But then again,... It may have been accumulated damage culminating in the final failure put down to the pressure of coming into tight marinas, who wiling side winds and driver inexperience.
I have learnt my lesson,.... Nice and slow!

[jupiterexpress3]

Hi. I have a volvo penta sail drive that will not engage forward. It started playing up about 8 months back sailing Indonesia to Philippines. If I slowly eased it neutral to forward several times it would eventually engage. Now it won't engage at all. I have checked all cables and the the shift lever on top of gearbox. These appear to all function normal. Problem deeper in gearbox. Reverse works fine. The drive was installed new 2010 along with new Volvo Penta motor, only been run for 650hrs. I'm moored in remote area of Philippines. Any help or suggestions on what the problem might be would be appreciated.

Thx Doug

[k.weeteling]

Doug, I see that your message is the last and latest one in a long earlier list off mails from 2015 about the subject. 1. Are you aware of that? 2. How did you manage since august?
We have exactly the same problem/symptons since one month, VOLVOengine and saildrive are from 2009, some 3000 hours.
I think of buying a complete new leg instead of repairing. Boat is now in Australia , labour and parts will be available but expensive.
Jacob

[Harlequin]

Originally Posted by k.weeteling

...We have exactly the same problem/symptons since one month, VOLVO engine and saildrive are from 2009, some 3000 hours. I think of buying a complete new leg instead of repairing. Boat is now in Australia , labour and parts will be available but expensive. Jacob

That seems a bit drastic, Jacob, unless you have other issues with your Saildrive.

I suggest you consider (and cost) simply having the clutch plates serviced. You'll need to order the clutch servicing kit from Volvo, appropriate to your mark of Saildrive. And balancing the clutch/top assembly afterwards is a specialist job (done remotely, on a bench rig) but it will end up a lot cheaper than a whole new Saildrive. Even in Australia!

Where are you now? We had this done in Mooloolaba. [And replaced our Saildrive completely in NZ, so appreciate the difference in expense...]

Good luck!

[Harlequin]

I should add, you don't need to lift your boat out to service the top end of the Saildrive. Just separate engine from gearbox, by moving your engine forward a few inches, and the top assembly removes quite easily for service.

Obviously you would need to lift out for a total Saildrive change, greatly adding to the expense...

[Henryh]

Hello Jacob
If your symptoms are exactly the same as Dougs it does sound like the clutches. The first thing to check is what type of oil you are using.
If it is ATF (Automatic Transmission Fluid) then you need to change to standard no frills 15W-40 engine oil.
I have had a failing saildrive and since changing to 15W-40 it is still working 2 years later.
What is the engine/saildrive model?
I am assuming your saildrives are the type with clutches not cones.
Henry

[glovisol]

Many "mystery" problems of the Volvo Penta model 110S or 120S saildrives are caused by a "hidden" but essential component, which is barely mentioned once in the Workshop Manual, but never clearly shown. This component is the SLIDING CLUTCH (foto below, inner parts shown).

The clutch joins the vertical output shaft of the gearbox to the vertical shaft of the saildrive's leg and, in normal operation, DISCONNECTS for a fraction of a second the propeller shaft from the gearbox shaft when going from FORWARD to NEUTRAL or from REVERSE to NEUTRAL with motor running at idle speed.

Why is this clutch necessary and in fact so important that, if it is not working properly, does not allow normal gearshift operation? The gearbox vertical shaft carries a bronze double ended cone which the gear lever moves UP for REVERSE, CENTER for NEUTRAL and DOWN for FORWARD. When pushed up, the cone fits into the cavity of the reverse gear, when in center does not engage, when pushed down the cone fits into the cavity of the forward gear. These two gears are counter rotating and are driven by the commong gear rotated by the motor output shaft.

The torque of the motor is high and the cone, to transmit this torque to the propeller, is made to stick inside the gear cavity with great force. When we move the gearshift lever, this torque will oppose to the move of the cone unless we REMOVE the load from the vertical shaft (which is the load of the propeller turning). The SLIDING CLUTCH does just this, because it lets the lower shaft slide when the torque overtakes a calibrated setpoint.

The sliding clutch is made with 16 outer rings + 15 inner rings pressed to a torque of 25 N/m. If the torque has INCREASED beyond the optimum value, it will be difficult to go from forward/reverse to neutral and in some cases it is necessary to switch the motor off in order to go to neutral. This problem happens because it is impossible for the oil present in the saildrive to "clean" and keep clean the rings so strongly pressed together. Eventually slush and very fine dust abraded from the rings will clog them and make them stick.

If the torque has DECREASED below the optimum value, then the saidrive will slip and once you have set forward or reverse you will have to give a burst of accelleration to make the rings stick and get propeller push. This easily happens if water finds its way into the clutch: a few drops of water will remove the viscosity of the oil ald the clutch will slip. Or, with age, the rings will be a little abraded and will require a re-torquing.

If this is of interest, I shall post the full procedure for overhauling the sliding clutch. Prudentially this operation should be done every time the saildrive is dismantled to change the big hull gasket.

[glovisol]

Another source of problems is the cone assembly and associated "half moon" (double ended bronze cone) and the stainless steel shift lever. Contrary to normal belief, the cone assembly in general gets worn not on the cone diameters, but in the center track where the half moon shift lever is located. This happens because bronze here is in contact with the much harder stainless steel of the lever. The center track is not symmetrical, with the upper lip (A) (in use in REVERSE) thicker than the lower lip (B) (in use in FORWARD). The edge thickness measurements of a good cone assembly are: A=4.1 mm and B=3.4mm. An end-of-life cone assembly has A=2.9 mm and B=2.9 mm.

When the center track is worn, the half moon lever, even if it can push the cone up (reverse) or down (forward) from neutral, normally cannot push the cone assy back to neutral with motor running. In some cases the cone will go directly from forward to reverse without stopping in neutral. Any one of this "weird & strange" behaviours tell you that it is time to change the cone assy and to inspect the shift lever. In fact the shift lever, which never wears until the cone assy is within tolerance, starts wearing once its forward tip gets into contact with the bottom of the center track. A good lever will show the top of the half moon at C=12.2mm and the bottom of the half moon at D=9.6 mm. A worn lever will have C=11.5 mm and D=9.2mm.

Every year the wear of these parts should be checked by inspecting them by removing (two screws) the gear shift assy proper located on the side of the gearbox. The gear lever will come out for easy inspection and a flashlight pointed into the hole will show the condition of the cone assy's center track.

It is not difficult to change the cone assy. and several posts/YouTube examples show how to do it. Just remember that the cone assy has a TOP and a bottom and must be installed with the required orientation.

[Longbeard]

Excellent comments Glosivol. Thank you that’s really useful info.

I’ve got a similar issue with my Volvo 120sb. The prop spins freely when in gear. However I opened the gearbox oil cap while the motor was running. I could see a disk on a vertical shaft that spins in one direction when in gear and the other way when in reverse. So I assumed that the top gearbox/clutch must be fine. What do you think?

The prop is a two blade folding Volvo prop.

[glovisol]

"I’ve got a similar issue with my Volvo 120sb. The prop spins freely when in gear. However I opened the gearbox oil cap while the motor was running. I could see a disk on a vertical shaft that spins in one direction when in gear and the other way when in reverse. So I assumed that the top gearbox/clutch must be fine. What do you think?"

What you are seeing is the ring closing the springs on top of the VERTICAL SHAFT. Under this ring and the top vertical shaft bearing we have the CONE ASSEMBLY which shifts UP in REVERSE and DOWN in FORWARD. When the cone is up, it engages the TOP GEAR and the vertical shaft, tied to the cone, turns one way, when the cone is down, it engages the BOTTOM GEAR and the shaft turns the other way. If this happens, then preliminarily the cone assy seems O.K.

If the prop spins freely it can be:

1) The rubber coupling inside the prop is broken and the shaft turns inside the prop, but there is no connection between shaft and prop under load. This problem sometimes happens (it happened to me) with the two blade Volvo prop.

2) The SLIDING CLUTCH joining the gearbox vertical shaft and the vertical shaft of the lower part of the saildrive needs calibration or is defective.

3) The cone assy appears to be working, but slides when under load. This means that the middle collar of the cone assy (where the half moon lever fits) is worn: in this case cone assy and half moon lever must be replaced.

I have written a comprehensive article on this subject, which will be published in an Italian magazine next month, with many photos, but I do not know how I can send it to you. This article shows how to diagnose the problem and how to repair the saildrive. I would gladly translate it into English should some magazine/site be interested in uploading it.

[Longbeard]

That would be amazing, perhaps one of the admins could help make it a sticky post. Or perhaps you could put it up on a sail blog and share the link. Thanks so much for the advice, it’s very helpful.

One way I thought I might narrow it down: I can’t remember if I can see the nut that holds the prop on behind the meshing gears of the two blades. If it is visible, I could run the engine and check if the nut is turning (I.e. the shaft is spinning).

I’d really like to try an figure out what’s broken before I haul her out, that way I can buy the necessary parts and do the repair the same day and put her back in the water. Cos to diagnose on the dry stand, means I’ll have to order parts, wait for weeks and run up a nice big bill at the marina.

Anything else I can perhaps do on the water?

[glovisol]

Going down below to see if the prop is turning is dangerous and also can give you a misleading result. If the prop is broken as I described, it will still turn at slow revs, but slide under load at high revs. Broken prop is normally detected if it pushes the boat at low revs, but the boat does not accellerate under high revs.

If the boat does not move at all, even under slow revs, then most likely the problem is inside the saildrive. You can check the cones, while the boat is in the water, as follows:

1) Suck up at least one litre of oil by means of a motor oil removal electric pump and a very thin pipe.

2) Remove the saildrive's back plate and inspect the gears and the cones: check the cones' tolerances as indicated in my previous posts.

3) Remove the side block (where the gear shift cable is connected) BUT BEWARE NOT TO LET THE HALF MOON DROP INTO THE GEARBOX and check the halfmoon for wear.

4) Unfortunately it is impossible to check the sliding clutch without lifting the boat and disassembling the saildrive.

Depending on inspection, you may decide to lift the boat out, remove the saildrive and replace worn parts. I also made a simple tool that lets you remove the springs and the top flange & top gear (holding the oil cap) so that you can lift the cone assy and replace it, WITHOUT LIFTING THE BOAT OFF THE WATER, but it seems it is impossible to download photos to this thread.

[Longbeard]

Yeah I was a little hesitant about my idea for safety reasons. But it’s helpful to know that a broken hub still pushes the boat a little at low revs. My boat doesn’t appear to move at all even at low revs.

So It looks like I have to inspect the cone gears and half moon.

Would you be able to email me the pictures of that tool you made?

[glovisol]

Yes, I can send photos & PDF of article in Italian