Certifications and Insurance

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by l2ustyl3ullet

Quiet right about the faceless internet. I just thought it might be a simple question where people can speak from the experience. And I have a dislike of talking to people on the phone for some reason.

But nice to get another opinion on the formal training.

Another opinion from someone who went all the way in formal marine training (Master Mariner).

If you have the right attitude (which I think you do), you never stop learning.
The more you study, the more subtle the questions form in your own mind....
Instructors and courses are there to impress upon their students, the responsibility and commitment you carry as a skipper.....

Unfortunately, they tend to default to the lowest common denominator of the lazy or arrogant students to spoon feed and scare them into basic understanding of what they should know.

Study the Syllabuses of marine courses, challenge their multiple choice tests to evaluate your knowledge base and then assess the method of continued study that suits your personality.

Its not rocket science, but it can still kill you and your loved ones.

YOU are your best insurance!

[thinwater]

There is another cheap way. Buy a dinghy, sail it a ton in all weather, and then sell it for what you paid for it. Read everything. You will know how to sail and you will know the rules.

This will take a LOT longer than the class. But it is very effective, and most of the posters learned in that school.

At the end of the day there is the classroom part, which you can get just as well from a bunch of books, and the hands on part, which just takes time. A school shortens this. It depends on whether you are in a hurry or whether you enjoy learning on your own.

[rbk]

It’s been my experience that the more time being insured translates to lower rates. If and when you move up in boat size you can stick within a 10’ length you’ll generally get a cheaper rate than if you were to jump say 20’ in length. As for the training, I’ve met plenty of people with their pieces of paper from doctors, engineers to all manner of boaters; I can assure you that paper does not guarantee they’re smart or even halfway intelligent.

[l2ustyl3ullet]

Originally Posted by thinwater

There is another cheap way. Buy a dinghy, sail it a ton in all weather, and then sell it for what you paid for it. Read everything. You will know how to sail and you will know the rules.

This will take a LOT longer than the class. But it is very effective, and most of the posters learned in that school.

Very good point, it is on my mind to get a trailer sailor and go out on weekend's or whenever I can learning, it is going to be a fair while before the end goal is reached. And better off putting $3k into a boat than schools for a few days of sailing. And I am not in a great rush at the moment, so I don't mind it take a while longer.

And Pelagic, going point on You being the your biggest insurance.

[BlackHeron]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Re the insurance aspects of your question: Why in the world don't you call some insurance agents and see if they would insure you in the sort of boat and environment that you envision entering? They should be able to say yea or nay, and then you wouldn't need to rely upon faceless internet advice.

And as a sailor who has now logged > 150,000 miles in my own boats, and without any formal training whatsoever, I know that it can be done that way. The current mania for lessons and certifications for everything in life does not resonate well with me, but it surely exists. With the exception of very high risk, high complexity activities (flying, surgery, automotive driving, marriage, etc), I'm not convinced of the necessity of formal training. Obviously, many others disagree...

Jim

I totally agree with this. I have sailed with a local sailing club in my area and worked my way up the ranks from newbie to a lead in the organization over the years. We have zero credentials in this club and instead we teach our own system and promote folks in the club according to our own standards. We sail on a variety of 30-foot boats with a crew of 3-6 junior or moderately senior members and more senior lead in charge of the boat. Sometimes the boat might be more senior members across the board, especially in more challenging weather situations. We might cancel sails on 2 or 3 of the boats and consolidate the seniors together to get heavy weather experience on the remaining boat scheduled that day.

Everyone teaches and everyone learns as a student, from the rawest newbie who was just taught their first knot 5 minutes ago who will teach it to back his buddy while a senior student supervises, right up to the boat leads and other senior members of the club. It's like a one-room (boat) schoolhouse. We have a lot of really good leads, many of them USCG captains with years of experience.

My point is that I've seen too many new folks come into our club with a hat full of pieces of paper saying they have 'earned" ASA 101,103,104, and even 106 certifications. They should be theoretically squared-away and know just about everything we will be doing on a simple 3-hour day-sail or evening "lesson." Yet as often as not they are totally clueless and not much better than a newbie on his 2nd or 3rd sail. Sure, they say they took their classes last year or a couple of years ago and forgot some stuff between then and now. But they are barely able to helm, and not without me or another senior being there riding herd and certainly not ready to dock a 30-ish foot boat without a senior mentor right there riding herd over the wheel or tiller to take control before they do any serious damage or hurt any of the other crew on deck.

There is NO substitute for experience and basic sea time. And the ASA classes just don't and can't do that from my experience working with many of their graduates. You can't expect folks to be even near proficient in anything in a few weeks of classes that only last a few hours each. It takes us months to train up a good senior member to be able to lead a boatload of other club-members (even moderately senior members who know what they are doing too) on their own, yet these magical ASA classes can somehow do it and create a 'skipper' in much less time with the addition of a few hundred or thousand dollars of cash and a few classes.

I'm sure there are folks who took these classes and learned very quickly and actually retained most of what they learned. Then again there are folks who sailed with a club or a race boat who learned just as much in the same amount of time. When I see folks with certifications from these schools it really doesn't impress me much. Show me what you can do. Demonstrate those skills... Tell me the steps to casting off or docking. Walk me through the procedure to raise sail, to reef, to perform a tack or a jibe. Look at the boat and tell me where the sheets and halyards are without memorizing which color line each one is. Do it successfully and safely or that's not real knowledge, that's rote memorization and is absolutely worthless when you get on someone else's boat, when you are in charge and there is nobody there senior to you to hold your hand.

Spending a lot of money on a class that gives you a piece of paper doesn't make you proficient. In many ways I have seen that it gives folks a false sense of accomplishment. At best it doesn't get in their way to really learning how to sail after they get that piece of paper. At worst it empowers them into making some really bad newbie mistakes in the false belief they know what they are doing.

[valhalla360]

Not sure about New Zeeland but in the USA...

They will insure just about anyone but will often give a significant discount if you can show experience, particularly as you move above the 20-25' size. Often after a year, the insurance rates will drop on the premise that you are now experienced with the boat. Evidence of previously owning similar size boats will also be considered a positive.

We have the US Power Squadron in the states which offers a variety of classroom training for minimal expense and that is often taken as evidence of training that insurance companies will be happy with.

You can take other on the water training or if you have knowledgeable friends, that can work well also for actually learning to operate your boat. Just do a good job interviewing them as we had a poor experience with ASA. Many do it part time they tend to be scattered, so it's hard for the organization to police the quality.

[Sojourner]

I had a similar thought process a few months ago.... I used to sail with friends in Australia as a young adult, and in Cambodia much later (long story), so I could actually get a sailboat from A to B pretty well (in good weather, once out in open seas, without having to making plans....) So when I decided to get a boat (still shopping but getting to a survey soon on a 53 footer), I knew I needed some training, but I wasn't a beginner either. So I did a ton of on-my-own bookwork, accredited online work (much cheaper than live courses), and then found an instructor to basically test me for the licenses. In a matter of days, with my previous experiences factored in and the online work, I got my RYA Coastal Skipper as well as my ICC, and my (I think mandatory) VHF operator's license. I do think insurance might be affected, certainly if I get into an accident. But I knew I was still missing a lot of hands-on stuff, so I'd still recommend training at least for one of you (I think the OP said two people were involved).... No book can train you for med-mooring in a marina crowded with expensive boats in a 20knot crosswind, but with an instructor on the other wheel, you'll be doing reverse donuts around everyone in no time. If you have the money for any sort of boat, you probably can find the money to get some training...you'll be happy you did. For your sake, as well as your boat's, your cruising companions', and the rest of us sailing around you too!

[hellosailor]

"I would say a large amount of what you need to know, can be learnt from a book...I would note that I have little to no experience sailing, but am confident"

Well, the insurers certainly appreciate that book learning and certifications are worth something, but they're going to want experience if you want a lower premium.

Boating is like poker, or golf, or professional soccer. The rules are simple, they can be found in a book. Ah, but without skill and practice, lots of practice, how well will you play the same?

I taught my nephew how to drive a manual shift car, and after the first ten minutes in just first and second gear, he looked at me and said "Whoa, this is nothing like Grand Theft Auto!" All the sailing simulators just can't throw the real experience at you.

So, the insurers will still be happiest if you have book learning PLUS actual sea miles. You can get those on your own boat, sailing uninsured or paying dearly. Or you can log them as crew or student on someone else's boat. But there are no magic shortcuts to be had, one way or the other.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by l2ustyl3ullet

Very good point, it is on my mind to get a trailer sailor and go out on weekend's or whenever I can learning, it is going to be a fair while before the end goal is reached. And better off putting $3k into a boat than schools for a few days of sailing. And I am not in a great rush at the moment, so I don't mind it take a while longer.



And Pelagic, going point on You being the your biggest insurance.

If you don’t know much, you won’t learn it sailing on your own. I would consider joining a sailing club that races and join a variety of boats as crew. That way you will learn from people who actually know how to sail. Sailing with a variety of people will teach you different ways of doing the same thing. Both very valuable. I’m not sure about where you are in NZ, but if in Auckland the RNZYS is very welcoming of new crew and will actively help you get onto boats. Start with the midweek twilight races and work your way up the fleet. Other clubs are similarly welcoming.

Alternatively, consider joining a small boat club and rent or buy a dinghy. Again, participate in racing - by far the best way to learn sailing skills. Many clubs have learn to sail and other programs to help newbies. It don’t just get a boat and try to learn on your own.

For learning about safety and navigation, I strongly recommend theory courses like the Dayskipper course. These are much cheaper than the on water courses, which I agree are much too expensive for what you learn (unless you absolutely cannot get onto a sailboat any other way).

For large boat and cruising experience, develop friendships with people who own boats. If you’re near Auckland, pm me. Contact other NZ cf members or put up an ad.

Also, charter - either local or in a holiday place. First time probably with a skipper, but eventually go bareboat. That’s expensive, but can give you and your gf one on one instruction as well as a vacation.

[Sailor_Al]

I would like to 2nd Valhalla360 recommendation of the Power Squadron. I aware of the club within the US and Canada. Cheap classroom training, and on the water is probably available It's good as a social group as well

[esarratt]

Spending time with my sailing club was the best "training" I ever got.

For insurance, I used my homeowners policy and it only cost me $50.00 a year (US). Mind you, this was a liability only policy (my boat was not insured against damage or loss), but it keeps me safe if I clip a multimillion dollar yacht. I also don't mind doing fiberglass work.

The total replacement value of my boat is only $12,000-$15,000.

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by esarratt

For insurance, I used my homeowners policy and it only cost me $50.00 a year (US). Mind you, this was a liability only policy (my boat was not insured against damage or loss), but it keeps me safe if I clip a multimillion dollar yacht. I also don't mind doing fiberglass work.

The total replacement value of my boat is only $12,000-$15,000.

Theoretical Question:
How can a $50/ yr premium protect you against mega yacht damages, if you were found to be grossly negligent or even judged impaired in a collision?

If the boat is in your name, they could end up owning your house in a civil case.

[barnakiel]

When we insured we got a discount for me having the papers. But the company is quite as happy to insure any ignorant too. At a price.

Our third party paper does not ask for any licenses. EXCEPT that you are not supposed to operate any equipment that you are not authorised/licensed to operate.

So to say they will insure you but if you have an accident, they will refuse to pay when they find you lack any papers required by your govts.

Cheers,
b.

[hellosailor]

esar may be in for the usual rude surprise that many policy holders get: There are policy limits on everything. Homeowners? Could be a one million dollar cap on the policy, or a half million car on "any on incident", or other surprise.

Ask any typesetter or professional graphic designer. There really are very commonly known and well documented ways to make something hard to read, and adhesion contracts (including insurance policies) are usually typeset following ALL the rules to make them legal, but also incredibly hard to read.

That usually includes odd pages sizes, tightly spaced lines, the legal minimum type size (which may be 8 points, compared to the 5 point size used in classified ads) the use of a typeface which is condensed or shortened compared to "normal" for that size, the use of line lengths that are well over 50 characters wide, the use of all uppercase type...all sorts of tricks that are used to defeat the simplistic laws which say how they have to be "legible".

It can still be a good deal, but who among us REALLY can read one of those policies (plus amendments) without reading glasses and aspirin?

A friend of mine, a doctor, tried to explain this to a new patient. Patient says, my insurance has coverage for an unlimited number of visits. Doctor (after checking with insurer) says yes, they do. Subject to a $25 co-payment and a $25 deductible. And since my fee is $50...Their policy doesn't pay anything at all, you have to pay the whole thing.

Clever, these insurers.

[fxykty]

Well, I don’t know about the US insurance industry, but here in NZ the insurance company I used to work for introduced ‘plain English’ policy wording. For a typical 30 page ‘legalese’ policy document the plain English version was 50 pages, albeit it had a lot more white space. It took months for each document and cost a ton of money, as in addition to the actual writing we had our lawyer, underwriters and claims assessors all review it to ensure changing the wording didn’t change the legal meanings.

The point I’m making is that an insurance company has an interest in helping its customers to understand their policies. Otherwise, unhappy customers become someone else’s new customer. I don’t think there’s any insurance business model that works by having to continually find new customers while bleeding away existing customers.

IMO, legal documents aren’t written to obfuscate the meaning, rather, they are written to cover all possible eventualities. Hence the run on clauses, the wherefores and hithertos, and the use of defined words that mean one thing and one thing only. It does mean you have to read them very carefully to extract the real word meanings of what they say. Usually, this is where an experienced broker can help. Just make sure, same as for a financial adviser, that you’re very clear on how they get paid.