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Old 12-08-2017, 10:44   #31
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Re: certification I can work with

Someone once told me that you keep slow money & lose fast money. No such thing as a free lunch and all that. Although exceptions, mostly true.
Don't look for shortcuts. There is no substitute for putting in the time. Get all of the certs you can if you want to make a living teaching sailing.
That said I was the best teacher at the beginning. Teaching ASA 101 with no USCG license. The reason was I was enthusiastic and loved every minute of it. Teaching beginning sailing can become tiresome. Later I would only teach nav courses since I always learned from those.
I've found that we love to generalize and make assumptions. Important to look at the specifics. Every class is different. People have different expectations & goals. I have my own criticism of ASA but in the end any new learning experience is good.
Good luck with your endeavor.
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Old 12-08-2017, 12:01   #32
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Re: certification I can work with

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Originally Posted by sailingharry View Post
In the us, a few details change the answers!

ASA is meaningless. It is a private cert used by a private company to boost their credibility (a good thing, for sure). It has no legal recognition (beyond meeting -- for now -- an EU requirement for private operation of a yacht).

USCG license is REQUIRED for operating a powered vessel for hire. Not to be crew, though.

Most schools (J-world, etc) specifically use engineless boats (J70, etc) for training. If there is no engine, there are no rules. ASA Instructor cert makes you more marketable, but anyone can legally charge to take passengers for hire on a pure sailboat (or rowboat, or canoe). USCG won't care.
Going to have to check that assertion carefully! Yes, the USCG places great importance on the fact that a vessel has an engine or doesn't, for a number of things including safety equiment, but I don't think having no engine exempts a person from needing a license when working for hire with paying passengers. In fact, you are required to pass the sailing endorsement for your Master's License or OUPV, in order to captain a sailing vessel. Moreover, if trying to qualify as an AB (Able Seaman, an important function but low on the totem pole) licensed to work on sailing vessels, such as training vessels, a requirement is 180 days at sea, specifically on a sailing vessel. What regulation are you citing that states that you don't need a license for commercial work on a sailing vessel? There may be one that exempts those on really small boats like some of the J's, but I would like to see a cite for larger vessels.

And, by the way, if you check the USCG Auxiliary's information on licenses, you will see that teaching is specifically mentioned as requiring a license.

If nothing else, this discussion has probably opened a lot of eyes on what is actually required. Of course, one only has to ask the USCG.....
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Old 12-08-2017, 12:52   #33
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Re: certification I can work with

OK, now I am confused a little.

I spent over three years at sea nearly full time while in the US Navy on board an aircraft carrier, plotting weather maps, forecasting, and dealing with hazardous issues related to Oceanography and Meteorology relative to ship operations, flight operations, and interactions with friend and foe. Included in this was experience and training about fire fighting at sea and damage control, search and rescue, and a host of other seagoing operations, all documented fully in my service record and on my DD-214's.

I also took (and have proof of) multiple leadership courses (some in the college classroom as part of my AA, BS, MBA, and now will have some in my Doctorate), and I had advanced through E-5 before transferring to a shore location airfield for the remainder of my nearly 8 years of active duty (long before college).

Then I went on to operate small power boats for personal use and with friends (not for hire). None of those vessels were sailboats per-se, all were propulsion via oar and/or some form of engine(s). I learned navigation via Cornell University while attached to the aircraft carrier as part of my training regimen.

This said, is it correct that I have the history to be able to apply for and potentially recieve a certification of some sort that will allow me to operate some sort of paid charter, fishing, or touring service in the US on my powered sailboat (or a larger one perhaps), or a power vessel? It seems like not, but from some of the comments here...??
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Old 12-08-2017, 12:56   #34
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Re: certification I can work with

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Originally Posted by sailingharry View Post
...
If there is no engine, there are no rules. ASA Instructor cert makes you more marketable, but anyone can legally charge to take passengers for hire on a pure sailboat (or rowboat, or canoe). USCG won't care.
Ive seen that stated online a few times, but do not believe it is correct. At least Ive never run across an official statement to that fact. Have you?

While there are distinctions in USCG regulations, COLREGs, and CFRs between powered and non powered Im not aware of any that exempt sail only vessels from passengers for hire rules. Will do some research...

The whole purpose of those rules in the first place was to enhance passenger saftey. Saying you can go be stoopid just because you have no engine doesnt pass the sniff test...but again...sure would like to see a reference.

I do know captains who carry passengers on engineless traditional vessels in the USA. But these are Inspected Vessels so the USCG definately cares in that case.

Anybody got an official reference for this?
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Old 12-08-2017, 13:03   #35
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Re: certification I can work with

My sail only vessel (Hobie 33) with a slick new bottom job! Cant wait to turn her loose on the water again.

Im using her to teach classes in November, but in Guatemala...where nobody really gives a rat what tickets I have.

Another fine investment! She has paid for herself a few times over.

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Old 12-08-2017, 13:24   #36
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Re: certification I can work with

I have dug it up before. However, with a bit of digging I found this chart ASA uses to guide instructors on need for license.

http://asa.com/pdf/USCG-questions.pdf
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Old 12-08-2017, 13:38   #37
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Re: certification I can work with

I initially found this info when wondering the same question. I have literally thousands of offshore miles under sail in sailboats to 100 ft, am a Navy Surface Warfare officer, and could very easily acquire a license. However, MAINTAINING it is not easy if you aren't sailing for a living. As I near retirement, the thought of teaching at a local school (mostly for fun -- I don't need the money) has crossed my mind. It got me to wondering -- no way do all those youngun's teaching have Captain certs. And, with digging, I found the answer!
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Old 12-08-2017, 13:46   #38
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Re: certification I can work with

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Originally Posted by sailingharry View Post
I have dug it up before. However, with a bit of digging I found this chart ASA uses to guide instructors on need for license.

http://asa.com/pdf/USCG-questions.pdf
Im very familiar with that chart (ASA Instructor, IE, and former school owner). It was developed by ASA in consultation with their USCG district. It applies in their district (Marina del Rey, CA). But, other districts may have different interpretations.

And while these narrowly defined exeptions may exempt you from requiring a license in those circumstamces they dont exempt you from "all the rules". You must still comply with applicable saftey regulations etc.
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Old 12-08-2017, 13:58   #39
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Re: certification I can work with

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailingharry View Post
I initially found this info when wondering the same question. I have literally thousands of offshore miles under sail in sailboats to 100 ft, am a Navy Surface Warfare officer, and could very easily acquire a license. However, MAINTAINING it is not easy if you aren't sailing for a living. As I near retirement, the thought of teaching at a local school (mostly for fun -- I don't need the money) has crossed my mind. It got me to wondering -- no way do all those youngun's teaching have Captain certs. And, with digging, I found the answer!
Maintaining can be a pain, especially with all of today's additional requirements. And, no way I know of to renew without returning to the USA...a real pain for those of us not living in the USA. You're right, not worth it unless working commercially where its required.

A very handy option for not letting it expire is to place it in "continuity". Its easy to do and is sort of like placing it in suspended animation. This keeps it from expiring, but you cant legally work under it.

In my case, working mostly in Belize where no license is recognized except the joke of a Belizean license (which is in turn recognized nowhere but Belize), it was a very handy way to not lose my USCG license and avoid an expensive and unecessary trip to the USA.
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Old 12-08-2017, 15:32   #40
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Re: certification I can work with

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Originally Posted by SailingFan View Post
OK, now I am confused a little.

I spent over three years at sea nearly full time while in the US Navy on board an aircraft carrier, plotting weather maps, forecasting, and dealing with hazardous issues related to Oceanography and Meteorology relative to ship operations, flight operations, and interactions with friend and foe. Included in this was experience and training about fire fighting at sea and damage control, search and rescue, and a host of other seagoing operations, all documented fully in my service record and on my DD-214's.

I also took (and have proof of) multiple leadership courses (some in the college classroom as part of my AA, BS, MBA, and now will have some in my Doctorate), and I had advanced through E-5 before transferring to a shore location airfield for the remainder of my nearly 8 years of active duty (long before college).

Then I went on to operate small power boats for personal use and with friends (not for hire). None of those vessels were sailboats per-se, all were propulsion via oar and/or some form of engine(s). I learned navigation via Cornell University while attached to the aircraft carrier as part of my training regimen.

This said, is it correct that I have the history to be able to apply for and potentially recieve a certification of some sort that will allow me to operate some sort of paid charter, fishing, or touring service in the US on my powered sailboat (or a larger one perhaps), or a power vessel? It seems like not, but from some of the comments here...??
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In that case get "Get Your Captains License" Used about $20. Handy that it has a CD for reviewing Rules of The Road test which is the hard one if you know nav and Set & Drift. Go take your test. I paid $50 to USCG when I did it. Sort of fun and then you have it.
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Old 12-08-2017, 15:54   #41
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Re: certification I can work with

Belize -- you mentioned you know captain's on engineless inspected vessels that carry passengers for hire.

That's quite unusual! What kind of vessel? Most for hire boats, even reproductions of historical ships, have engines -- they are so "necessary" today.

Here on the Chesapeake, a Skipjack might fit -- but their push-boat probably qualifies for needing an license.
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Old 12-08-2017, 19:04   #42
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Re: certification I can work with

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In that case get "Get Your Captains License" Used about $20. Handy that it has a CD for reviewing Rules of The Road test which is the hard one if you know nav and Set & Drift. Go take your test. I paid $50 to USCG when I did it. Sort of fun and then you have it.
Hmmm... Mebbie!!
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Old 13-08-2017, 03:49   #43
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Re: certification I can work with

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Belize -- you mentioned you know captain's on engineless inspected vessels that carry passengers for hire.

That's quite unusual! What kind of vessel? Most for hire boats, even reproductions of historical ships, have engines -- they are so "necessary" today.

Here on the Chesapeake, a Skipjack might fit -- but their push-boat probably qualifies for needing an license.
Yes, quite unusual.

See the Three Masted Schooner VICTORY CHIMES, owned and operated by Captain Kip Files. I had the pleasure of serving under Mr. Files on the ELISSA.

http://victorychimes.com

Also see the Schooner MARY DAY, owned and operated by Captain Barry King, who I also know from the ELISSA.

https://schoonermaryday.com/?utm_source=MWA

Both these vessels are engineless and use Yawl Boats to push them around when needed.

I believe there are other vessels in the Maine fleet which are engineless also, but these are the 2 I know. Both are USCG Inspected Passenger Vessels.

See the full fleet here:

http://sailmainecoast.com/pick-a-ship/our-vessels


By contrast, the ELISSA, which was originally engineless too, was required by her USCG district to fit an engine to operate as a passenger vessel. Her home port is Galveston, TX.

http://www.galvestonhistory.org/attr...ll-ship-elissa


Different Districts have different interpretations of the rules and different local considerations...like the historic significance of traditional vessels in Maine.
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Old 13-08-2017, 04:07   #44
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Re: certification I can work with

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Originally Posted by SailingFan View Post
OK, now I am confused a little.

I spent over three years at sea nearly full time while in the US Navy on board an aircraft carrier, plotting weather maps, forecasting, and dealing with hazardous issues related to Oceanography and Meteorology relative to ship operations, flight operations, and interactions with friend and foe. Included in this was experience and training about fire fighting at sea and damage control, search and rescue, and a host of other seagoing operations, all documented fully in my service record and on my DD-214's.

I also took (and have proof of) multiple leadership courses (some in the college classroom as part of my AA, BS, MBA, and now will have some in my Doctorate), and I had advanced through E-5 before transferring to a shore location airfield for the remainder of my nearly 8 years of active duty (long before college).

Then I went on to operate small power boats for personal use and with friends (not for hire). None of those vessels were sailboats per-se, all were propulsion via oar and/or some form of engine(s). I learned navigation via Cornell University while attached to the aircraft carrier as part of my training regimen.

This said, is it correct that I have the history to be able to apply for and potentially recieve a certification of some sort that will allow me to operate some sort of paid charter, fishing, or touring service in the US on my powered sailboat (or a larger one perhaps), or a power vessel? It seems like not, but from some of the comments here...??
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Be aware that there is a currency requirement for sea time. To count, it must have been logged in the past 5 years. There are other constraints too depending upon the nature of your service and license you are seeking.

There is even a handy online calculator to determine your total qualifying time:

https://homeport.uscg.mil/mycg/porta...annelId=-30389
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Old 13-08-2017, 05:12   #45
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Re: certification I can work with

I suspect the yawl boat on Victory Chimes, like the Skipjack, qualifies as "propulsion" and leads to requiring a captain.
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