certification I can work with

[contrail]

Originally Posted by magellanyachts

Good info but must add "Demise Charter" is a way around USCG license if boat is chartered by student and instructor is hired as crew or instructor but not in charge of running the boat.

Re-reading this, I image that a distinction would be made between someone with a boat, demise chartered or owned outright, who hires someone to come along and instruct, and a sailing school whose instructor is clearly "in charge" of the boat and the voyage, and to whom payment has been made.

[jmschmidt]

In response to “contrail’s” excellent dissertation, one writer who posted (next paragraph) came up with this as a way around using unlicensed personnel for skippers and crew in what are essentially small-scale commercial operations like bare boat charters, yacht club and marina water taxis, goffers on movie shoots, etc.

Good info but must add "Demise Charter" is a way around USCG license if boat is chartered by student and instructor is hired as crew or instructor but not in charge of running the boat.

Here’s what I found no google:

1. Ship leasing arrangement in which the use of the entire vessel and all associated expenses pass on from the ship owner to the lessee (chartrer). If the lessee also has the right to appoint own master and the crew, it is called a bareboat charter.

2. 2.A bareboat charter or demise charter is an arrangement for the chartering or hiring of a ship or boat, whereby no crew or provisions are included as part of the agreement; instead, the people who rent the vessel from the owner are responsible for taking care of such things.

3. Demise charter is a contract whereby the ship owner leases its vessel to the charterer for a period of time during which the whole use and management of the vessel passes to the charterer. In such a situation, the charterer pays all expenses for the operation and maintenance of the vessel. Officers and crew become servants of the charterer. A demise charter whereby the charterer has the right to place its own master and crew on board of the vessel is called a bareboat charter.

These are probably all well and good but as “contrail” so accurately points, it’s the insurance factor that rules our world and many other worlds. A “demise charter” may beat the USCG but it doesn’t mean squat to your insurance company, got that Board of Directors of my unnamed yacht club. Accounting records, when subpoenaed by the court, will show who actually is paying for what.

OK, if you ding, or even sink boat, bang a dock or somebody else’s boat they’ll probably cover you if it’s minor just to keep you as a policy holder. But, kill or seriously injure someone and/or do substantial damage and they will go through your policy with a fine toothed comb and decline coverage in a heartbeat. (Same with your car or home if you Airbnb it.)

Insurance companies are the 100,000 pound whales in everyone’s the dinghy. Or, you can always go naked, never acquire much money or assets and declare bankruptcy when THE BAD happens.

I love this new Airbnb type yacht rental operation. Say what! You want to rent my boat but you don’t know WTF you’re doing? No problem mate.

[Snore]

Originally Posted by jmschmidt

“contrail” has set the record straight. Great advice, heed it.-.

+1.

Also- I just spent a week investigating insurance coverage for demise agreements. The charter firm is required to have a "competent person" operate all boats. If the student charters the vessel, he is clearly not competent. So the unlicensed person would be engaged to operate the vessel. If ANYTHING happened "it" would hit the fan when it came out there was an unlicensed person in charge.

The premise of this thread is troubling. If one cannot qualify for a basic OUPV, how can one feel qualified to teach sailing?

[nautical62]

Originally Posted by Snore

+1.


The premise of this thread is troubling. If one cannot qualify for a basic OUPV, how can one feel qualified to teach sailing?

I find this ironic because the OUPV does not cover anything about teaching people to sail, sailing instructor courses do. While I think certifications have their place, it doesn't follow one can only be an effective teacher if one is certified. Conversely, someone can hold a certificate and not be a very good teacher.

Obviously anyone teaching should have their OUPV for situations in which it is required, but not all sailing instruction requires having the OUPV.

[Deltasailor]

Originally Posted by Benz

The RYA yachtmaster will be the most useful if Yacht Week falls through and you need a plan B. A USCG ticket will be necessary if you want to do captain work in the US.

Get yourself out to Yachting Centers, France the Atlantic Coast/Med Coast
UK South Coast. Greece Ionian Islands/ Athens. Put yourself about and ask for work. Experience afloat is worth way more than bits of paper. Get the experience then look for the "bit of paper" you need. I would rather sail with a guy who had a few miles under his keel than one with no sea miles and a load of paper. Navigation can be taught at a distance on the "net". Learn the basics then have a go at sea. Good luck, it's a great life.

[Mithril Bham]

Originally Posted by contrail

Not really. It gets the charter company off the hook. Not understood by many is that a demise charter, which has its roots in WWII, when the US "chartered" lots of private yachts for things such as submarine patrols, transfers all rights and obligations of ownership to the charterer. Including the right to hire and fire the skipper (even if he or she is the owner) and everything else. Most guests don't have any idea that's what's entailed.

It's been a long time since I did demise charters in the US, and my memory may or may not be correct, but I think that if the passengers are paying, a license is still required. Not sure, but it's an easy question for the CG. Actually, if memory serves, the demise charter may have been used to get around six pac limitations (uninspected vessel) and maybe Jones Act requirements regarding boats built outside of the US. But I think that if people are paying you have to have a license. You would have to check. All this stuff is often ignored and violated, but if something goes amiss.....

Some of these laws are misunderstood even by those who are supposed to know. I do believe it is legal to hire anyone to help or teach you if you are the designated skipper. Have done this various times in many locations worldwide for a variety of reasons.

[dinosaur]

Originally Posted by LTDsailing

I'm not sure how The Yacht Week is getting around having a professional license and allowing their captains to work in the Med using the ASA 106 certification. That is interesting - I don't know enough about the regulations in the Med to comment. But I will tell you that getting your ASA 106 certification is going to be the easiest way to meet their requirements. I would also tell you that getting your RYA yachtmaster is going to be the most marketable certification you could get.

From what I have seen, The Yacht Week doesn't pay much. Looks like a lot of fun though - as long as you don't mind cleaning up a bit of puke here and there.

If you are serious - go for the Yachtmaster. If you just want to go be skipper on Yacht Week go for the ASA 106.

I don't know how they do this either.
But if you have one of these certs(among others they accept) then you can sign up for a 9 day intensive training course with a company called Quarter Deck.
They are based out of Croatia and you must do the training course with them before you have a chance to get hired with Yacht Week.
The course covers close quarters maneuvering and flotilla operations as well as all the other safety & MOB type stuff.
Obviously you are expected to know all this before the course but it serves as a good means of making sure everyone they hire is on the exact same page with procedures...
In addition to squeezing out some mandatory training course fees
Kinda like making someone pay 800 euros just to apply.
I have no knowledge on the pass/fail ratio of this course.

The premise of this thread is troubling. If one cannot qualify for a basic OUPV, how can one feel qualified to teach sailing?

Nahhh, not looking to teach.
People keep mentioning this as a consideration but it's not the goal right now.

Several folks have mentioned getting my OUPV but I am 200+ days short and it still wouldn't qualify me for international work.
Not that i won't get it some day but that's a later rather than sooner move.

*** Roland Stockham, those online courses you mention are something that i will look into.
Though i do know i am a better learner when i'm in a face to face environment.
Like i said in my OP, cost is an issue sadly.

I think it was contrail who mentioned shady business practices and insurance issues.
I suppose there is the potential for this especially with an international company bringing in international workers.
Considering Yacht Week in particular though...
They are not an unknown company.
And in Croatia at least, they are a huge reason for younger tourism (other than Game of Thrones fanatics)
Croatian authorities are sticklers for fining you if you are in violation, they pay close attention to details.
I would think that a company putting their skippers at this kind of risk would find it difficult to thrive as a well known business there.
How would you be at fault if you hold an international certification in sailing, have passed a Croatian based training course and hold the proper VHF/STCW certs?
I doubt this is the kind of situation where they say "oh i see you have your ASA cert, here is a 40'yacht, make us rich!"
Then again, nothing would surprise me anymore.

[jmschmidt]

I was taught sailing by probably fifty or a hundred different people over the years. At the age of 73 I even learned something in last night's beer can race. Very few of those "instructors" had licenses. But none charged for their services anyway.

[Snore]

Originally Posted by nautical62

I find this ironic because the OUPV does not cover anything about teaching people to sail, sailing instructor courses do. While I think certifications have their place, it doesn't follow one can only be an effective teacher if one is certified. Conversely, someone can hold a certificate and not be a very good teacher.

Obviously anyone teaching should have their OUPV for situations in which it is required, but not all sailing instruction requires having the OUPV.

Not all OUPVs or even Masters can teach- agreed. But, if you do not have the sea time and ability to learn navigation, etc to pass an OUPV--- how can you have the real world at sea experience to teach sailing?

Like many who teach ASA, my classes are enriched and my students rate me well because I weave in real world experiences. If you don't have the sea time... ...

Any hoot wish you well

[Snore]

Originally Posted by jmschmidt

But none charged for their services anyway.

Big difference!!!

FWIW, we all learn something new (or validate what we do) when we sail with outhers.

[Mithril Bham]

Originally Posted by Snore

+1.

Also- I just spent a week investigating insurance coverage for demise agreements. The charter firm is required to have a "competent person" operate all boats. If the student charters the vessel, he is clearly not competent. So the unlicensed person would be engaged to operate the vessel. If ANYTHING happened "it" would hit the fan when it came out there was an unlicensed person in charge.

The premise of this thread is troubling. If one cannot qualify for a basic OUPV, how can one feel qualified to teach sailing?

So many assumptions. We had a student from Monaco who had sailed all of his life including many trans oceanic crossings who took ASA courses from us in the BVI just for fun. Many courses taught on owner's boats because they thought ASA certification would be a nice thing to have. Some of these owners were more competent than their instructors. Good or bad? Don't know. Depends on the situation.

[MikeFergie]

This all depends on what part of the world you want to work on a boat and what " ownership or flag" the yacht flies.

In my part of the world South Africa no person may leave the port on a South African registered vessel unless they have a South African sailing association minimum day skippers license.

If you enter and leave on a foreign flagged vessel then a skippers from the flag country is adequate.

If you wish to use a vessel for commercial purposes then both the vessel as well as the crew need commercial licenses. This is only through an organization called SAMSA which regulates ALL commercial shipping in the country. The vessel must have a commercial shipping license no on the side and SAMSA issues a certificate of seaworthy for the vessel during the annual survey by their surveyors which is an annual process.

The skipper of the vessel needs to have a commercial license issued through one of their licensed schools as well as having a STCW (2010) certification which is a compulsory course internationally as per the IOM for any paid person on a vessel (cooks, cleaner etc all require this). This is a 10 day course covering safety at sea, ship fire fighting 2 days including breathing apparatus, fire extinguishers etc, life raft use deployment theory and practical, basic ship first aid course and security awareness including looking for stowaways, ship highjacking and piracy avoidance. You also are required to have a vhf operators license incorporating the new world wide standard (DSC calling)

Only after this are you eligible for a commercial license and take fee paying passengers.

There is the full RYA program in South Africa but even when licensed you can't leave the harbor on a South African registered vessel. So one would ask why is this then done locally - simple with exchange rates being what they are people from all over the world go to Cape Town for this training and the STCW courses which in " the USD or Euro " world are the best priced courses and with Cape Town offering one of the most notoriously challenging seas in the world they get jobs easy once this is completed.

I am not involved in any trading or school ( and in fact live outside of South Africa) but are just advising on things in this part of the world.

How about a Australian / New Zealand perspective ?

I also know the French don't allow for commercial use of a vessel by a RYA skipper ( I bumped into a couple in Mayotte Comoros who has RYA certificates but on a French flagged vessel had to undergo 6 month of French training before they were allowed to take fee paying passengers out in Mayotte.)

Regards
MikeF

[belizesailor]

How to circumvent getting a proper license is an old horse thats been beat to a bloody pulp. Ive been listening to various versions of that argument for decades and I expect its been going on long before I was even born.

Having been around the charter/sailing school industry for decades Ive watched people try all sorts of shams to avoid just doing things right in the first place. Sometimes going to more hassle and expense to avoid correct business/professional licensing than it would have been just to do it right in the first place. In fact, I know a couple of people who spent way more!

Sure, you can come up with some questionable scheme to avoid getting a license, but those schemes are usually only applicable to a very limited situation. Once that situation runs its course, then youve got nothing.

By contrast getting a proper license is a great long term investment. The cost is nominal and it will pay for itself many times over. Unlike some sham with limited applicability, it will also open up a wide range of options for you.

Getting a proper license is not that hard, especially with the plethora of limited licenses the USCG has available now. If you want to work in this industry as a real professional, then just do it.

In the long term a proper license plus YM certification is way more marketable than trying to weasel thru loop holes to get a job.

Instructor certifications (RYA, ASA, US Sail...) are also quite valuable. Cost me about $1,000 to do my initial instructor certs back in 1994...that has paid for itself at least 100x over...not including the great intangible benefit of getting paid to go on some great sailing adventures! 😆

Just Do It Right!

[contrail]

SO TRUE!

[sailingharry]

In the us, a few details change the answers!

ASA is meaningless. It is a private cert used by a private company to boost their credibility (a good thing, for sure). It has no legal recognition (beyond meeting -- for now -- an EU requirement for private operation of a yacht).

USCG license is REQUIRED for operating a powered vessel for hire. Not to be crew, though.

Most schools (J-world, etc) specifically use engineless boats (J70, etc) for training. If there is no engine, there are no rules. ASA Instructor cert makes you more marketable, but anyone can legally charge to take passengers for hire on a pure sailboat (or rowboat, or canoe). USCG won't care.