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Dulcesuenos · 22-07-2016, 09:14

,

Quote:

Originally Posted by pickpaul

You understand that victim credibility doesn't change their chance of being raped right?

Except that actually, in many cases credibility is inversely proportionate as rapists pick victims that have less to avoid prosecution.

Are you supporting a world where men are allowed to get drunk but not women as they need to stay sober to defend themselves against men?

You are also missing male rape in your thinking which is also a huge problem.

Credibility has nothing to with getting raped ,but I'd like to think smart choices reduces risks, are you implying a women with 8-12 years of college, a professional practice on a vacation to learn to sail is no more credible than s drug user, a prostitute or a. College kid. Who drinks to the point of passing out?

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Jason Flare · 22-07-2016, 10:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dulcesuenos

,

Credibility has nothing to with getting raped ,but I'd like to think smart choices reduces risks, are you implying a women with 8-12 years of college, a professional practice on a vacation to learn to sail is no more credible than s drug user, a prostitute or a. College kid. Who drinks to the point of passing out?

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Neither the doctor nor the prostitute is more credible. It is the evidence presented and a jury's deliberation on that evidence that will determine whether a rape occurred.

Dulcesuenos · 22-07-2016, 13:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason Flare

Neither the doctor nor the prostitute is more credible. It is the evidence presented and a jury's deliberation on that evidence that will determine whether a rape occurred.

I respectfully disagree,
"Credibility*refers to the objective and subjective components of the believability of a source or message. Traditionally, modern,*credibility, reliability has two key components: trustworthiness and expertise, which both have objective and subjective components." Wikipedia
People are doubting her claim. She in my book is more credible then a man/woman who goes on a party trip/ booze bash drug trip old prostitute with addiction issues. None of it probably matters as I doubt it goes to court and there will be no productive results pretty much like the rest of the crimes committed there, which was the point of most of the op.

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pickpaul · 22-07-2016, 14:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dulcesuenos

,

Credibility has nothing to with getting raped ,but I'd like to think smart choices reduces risks, are you implying a women with 8-12 years of college, a professional practice on a vacation to learn to sail is no more credible than s drug user, a prostitute or a. College kid. Who drinks to the point of passing out?

You may like to think many things but that doesn't make them true. Premeditated rapists often pick victims with little credibility to avoid prosecution.

I'm not implying, I'm stating that no victim should be less credible because they choose weed instead of booze, are a sex worker, a student, or passed out through alcohol or any other substance.

Lack of credibility is often given as a reason by rape victims for why they didn't contact the authorities.

Do "smart choices" include women behaving differently than men by not getting drunk or high? because that is victim blaming and sexist.

Perhaps you could reevaluate your opinion and thereby help in a small way to change the culture so that more victims feel comfortable coming forward about this highly underreported crime.

first wind · 22-07-2016, 16:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason Flare

You're referring to a rape that one woman states did not occur.

from the article:

“It was around fifteen minutes of hell before someone knocked at the door and my attacker fled.”

The police were called and Georgina went to hospital for an examination where she was given medication to prevent sexually transmitted diseases and HIV and treated for bruising and shock.

i don't think you can credibly doubt there was a rape. nor can it be doubted that your doubting woman would love to try to hide or discredit the incident:

from the article:

“Girls for Sail even advised me not to tell other women arriving alone what had happened in case it upset them.

also from the article:

Girls For Sail founder Annie O’Sullivan, who also owns the villa, said: “We have been a TripAdvisor recommended 4.5 star villa since 2012 and strenuously dispute the claims made.”

this is your doubting woman. i believe you misunderstand. i don't think she is doubting there was a rape. i believe she is disputing the fact that they didn't offer proper security or handle the incident properly.

however, as i said a while ago and someone repeated n a recent post, this woman has everything to gain by making the rape victim look like a liar and lots of money to lose and bad pr to gain if this woman get's taken seriously.

first wind · 22-07-2016, 16:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tetra

I certainly don't want to minimize the seriousness of this event and I'm sorry that she went through this--whatever happened down there. But, as a take-action kind of person, it is a little bit of a wake-up call. I look to myself for my own security and think that many/most of us do too.

When I travel, I tend to take the existence of locking doors for granted. But in this case, this reportedly was not the case. I've seen ads for travelers' security devices that might have prevented this. I've seen 'under door' wedges, door knob alarms and even bars that wedge between the floor and doorknob. My wife is taking a solo business trip soon and I think I'll send something like this along with her.

ssshhhhh don't say that out loud. there are some that might think the idea of taking responsibility for your own safety is disgusting.

seriously, though, i don't think you are minimizing the seriousness/ when it comes down to it, the purpose and benefit of a thread like this isn't news or gossip. it's a warning to others so that the many can learn the lesson from the experience of another and, thus, help the rest of us avoid the bad stuff the one person suffered.

first wind · 22-07-2016, 16:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dulcesuenos

Good point but if someone is Amoral to the point of rape I'd have to think they are pretty sick/ mentally ill but

a tiny bit off subject but, my GF has a career in the metal health field and a lot of schooling to back it up. and we have this debate all the time.

i agree with your point. to do evil acts, like this or worse, there has to be something wrong with you because sane people don't do things like that (....unless you are from a middle eastern muslim culture. then, things like beheading innocent people with small knives or stoning your neighbor's, or even your own, teenage daughter to death for falling in love with a boy from another muslim sect is considered normal, sane, and even honorable behavior....but i digress). the problem, then, becomes one of :is there truly evil or only different forms of mental aberration? or, when does it count as evil and when the act of a mentally ill person who doesn't know better?

on the other hand, does that distinction even really matter if you are considering the public safety from such evil, sick individuals?

perhaps, we are all truly evil or mentally sick because, if you commit atrocities for a recognized governing body or a recognized 'good cause' or religion, people will hail you as a hero. look at St. Olaf Tryggvason.

the only time atrocities are looked down on is if the person committing them is acting on his or her own accord and if the atrocity being committed is committed for a purpose not sanctioned by government or society. compare most people's ideas concerning privateers and pirates.

it's an interesting debate. i, personally, believe the entire human race is simply bat$h#& crazy. some are just crazy in ways the rest of us don't accept.

pickpaul · 22-07-2016, 16:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by first wind

ssshhhhh don't say that out loud. there are some that might think the idea of taking responsibility for your own safety is disgusting.

Can't we at least agree that threads about rape and big grin comments are incompatible first wind?

pickpaul · 22-07-2016, 18:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by first wind

a tiny bit off subject but, my GF has a career in the metal health field and a lot of schooling to back it up. and we have this debate all the time.

Debating repeatedly suggests you don't agree. Perhaps you should just take the word of your expert girlfriend.

I'm sure she would confirm that people suffering from mental illnesses are statistically far more likely to be victims than perpetrators.

Jason Flare · 22-07-2016, 21:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by first wind

from the article:

“It was around fifteen minutes of hell before someone knocked at the door and my attacker fled.”

The police were called and Georgina went to hospital for an examination where she was given medication to prevent sexually transmitted diseases and HIV and treated for bruising and shock.

i don't think you can credibly doubt there was a rape. nor can it be doubted that your doubting woman would love to try to hide or discredit the incident:

from the article:

“Girls for Sail even advised me not to tell other women arriving alone what had happened in case it upset them.

also from the article:

Girls For Sail founder Annie O’Sullivan, who also owns the villa, said: “We have been a TripAdvisor recommended 4.5 star villa since 2012 and strenuously dispute the claims made.”

this is your doubting woman. i believe you misunderstand. i don't think she is doubting there was a rape. i believe she is disputing the fact that they didn't offer proper security or handle the incident properly.

however, as i said a while ago and someone repeated n a recent post, this woman has everything to gain by making the rape victim look like a liar and lots of money to lose and bad pr to gain if this woman get's taken seriously.

And I don't believe one woman over the other because I would like to see all the evidence before declaring a verdict.

first wind · 22-07-2016, 21:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by pickpaul

You understand that victim credibility doesn't change their chance of being raped right?

Except that actually, in many cases credibility is inversely proportionate as rapists pick victims that have less to avoid prosecution.

Are you supporting a world where men are allowed to get drunk but not women as they need to stay sober to defend themselves against men?

You are also missing male rape in your thinking which is also a huge problem.

i think, and he can correct me if i am wrong, that what he is saying is that it is not unheard of and not uncommon for....say college girls, for instance....to party hearty and to screw around just like men do and then, when they ave a bit of buyer's remorse, turn around and cry rape. it's a valid point. you don't expect that from an older professional woman; thus his original comment that started this tangent.

a good number of innocent men spent time in jail due to this behavior. remember mike tyson's rape charge? the woman calls his chauffeur to come get her. when he picks her up to take to tyson's place, she is dressed in nothing but a nightie and a trench coat and bringing booze. she 'entertains' with tyson and later claims he raped her. would you buy it? i wouldn't. but, a jury did.

despite the fact that people of less than trustworthy status get raped and robber and whatever all the time, pretty much everyone tends to be a bit less doubting when the victim is someone that seems reliable and trustworthy.

does it make it right to think that way? probably not. but we are all human. that's why i urge my younger students not to speak that bastardized version of english that gangsta culture has made so 'cool', these days. you may be the smartest person in the room but, if you sound uneducated and ignorant, people will assume you are. human nature.

by the way, i chose college girls in particular because of what i saw during my time teaching martial arts on a college campus. i often hung out with my students after class. in fact, i am dating a girl i met, there, who was one of my students. and you'd see these girls sitting out front of the dorms, dressed like hookers, waiting for cabs to take them down town to the bars and they'd be talking about how drunk they were the night before and how they didn't even have any idea who the guy was they woke up next to that morning....talking about it like it was normal every day stuff like doing laundry. compare that to the woman in this rape case. who would you attribute greater credibility to in this situation: the girl who regularly gets plastered and sleeps with random strangers or the older, respectable dr on an all woman sailing learning vacation?

first wind · 22-07-2016, 21:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by pickpaul

You may like to think many things but that doesn't make them true. Premeditated rapists often pick victims with little credibility to avoid prosecution.

I'm not implying, I'm stating that no victim should be less credible because they choose weed instead of booze, are a sex worker, a student, or passed out through alcohol or any other substance.

Lack of credibility is often given as a reason by rape victims for why they didn't contact the authorities.

Do "smart choices" include women behaving differently than men by not getting drunk or high? because that is victim blaming and sexist.

Perhaps you could reevaluate your opinion and thereby help in a small way to change the culture so that more victims feel comfortable coming forward about this highly underreported crime.

it's not sexist at all because that kind of thing happens to guys, too. i can't tell you how many times, when i was younger and a bit rougher looking, i would get pulled over, while riding my motorcycle, and harassed by cops for absolutely nothing while some older, professional type would fly by in his volvo and the cop wouldn't even look his way.

whether male of female, older, professional type people are looked on as being more trustworthy, stable, dependable, responsible, moral, and respectable.

first wind · 22-07-2016, 22:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by pickpaul

Can't we at least agree that threads about rape and big grin comments are incompatible first wind?

ummmm no? if i hadn't have put the grin at the end of the comment, i'd have gotten criticism about the fact that i was meanly making fun of a previous post in a earlier part of the thread. i put the grin there, trying to make my comment a little more lighthearted and i upset people's feelings because i'm just not sensitive enough to the serious nature of the discussion. you just can't win.

first wind · 22-07-2016, 22:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by pickpaul

Debating repeatedly suggests you don't agree. Perhaps you should just take the word of your expert girlfriend.

I'm sure she would confirm that people suffering from mental illnesses are statistically far more likely to be victims than perpetrators.

lol wow dude you are seriously too serious.

debate. as in a friendly discussion about a subject exploring all sides. i didn't say arguments or even disagreements.

it's actually the insanity plea that is the basis/origin for most of our debates. you know: what is insanity, what is evil, where do you draw the line?

also, you are assuming she disagrees with my side of the debate. that would be incorrect. we both play devil's advocate and make points on both sides of the discussion. hell, what passes for sanity changes from era to era and culture to culture. it's not even a firm, solid area of facts and irrefutable evidence.

i mean, we (now) consider a guy who believes he should have been born a woman and wants his genitals mutilated to seem like he is a woman to be normal and, yet, there are people who believe they should be amputees and want to have part of their bodies cut off to right the mistake and we think they have a mental disorder. tell me where there is really a difference between the two. they both feel nature/god made an error and they both want to mutilate their bodies to fix this error.

in another hundred years, people may think our ideas of sanity were all totally wrong.

and, for your information, all of the people she deals with are forced into the program by the state in order to not be in an institution. see, 75% of them have committed violence against others. you know, killing parents and stuff. the remaining smaller portion are there for lesser, yet still not legally acceptable, issues. none of them are mentally well, although some a very highly functioning. she has to regularly take training classes on how to deal with a situation where the patients become violent.

not all mentally ill people are just peaceful simpletons that fall prey to the evils of society, you know. that's just as inaccurate a stereotype as thinking all mentally ill people are crazed lunatics.

many of them are very calculating and intelligent. mentally ill doesn't mean drooling idiot. most often, mentally ill people are mentally ill because their brains lack the ability to form rational judgments or because they can't handle social interactions with others or because they do not have the sense of concern for others or remorse that normal people have. they are often missing the elements in the brain that keeps the rest of us from doing wrong things. very often, they can't even judge what is right or wrong....which is where the insanity plea comes from.