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Old 23-03-2008, 18:12   #31
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Benny, Your words..."fault or blame"

I would think it is prudent for all sailors to seek a "reason" why something bad happened to a fellow sailor.

For no other reason than to remind us all to be careful out there.
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Old 23-03-2008, 18:22   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelagic View Post
Benny, Your words..."fault or blame"

I would think it is prudent for all sailors to seek a "reason" why something bad happened to a fellow sailor.

For no other reason than to remind us all to be careful out there.
I agree totally.

But I get annoyed with reporting that simply does a surface reporting of the facts that implies something, but doesn't put it into context. But then, that's the easy way to report. If you'll note, in this case, the reporter didn't state any conclusions (IIRC). Just the fact of what gear they had and what they didn't. Totally factual. But to really communicate, we need to try think of what conclusions people may draw from that and try to inform the reader. The average reader will infer that the equipment that was not there should have been. But in this world of news-tainment, it's the readership that counts, not the integrity of reporting.
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Old 23-03-2008, 20:15   #33
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Pelagic - your statement is the reason for my last paragraph regarding 'expert' findings - it goes without saying that we should all try to be prudent and safe and any real knowledge gained from this incident that will help others to avoid similar circumstances - it may be found that a certain type of equipment failed under stress etc.

My mention of fault or blame may eventually be the outcome as well - it may also be found that the sailors actually did or did not do certain actions etc which lead to their demise - being off course - lack of knowledge of the area etc. from which we could also learn.

What I was trying to focus on at this point in time before any evidence supported conclusions are finalized is that loss of life has occured for which we should recognize for it's own trajedy and not focus on whether or not these sailors had done something in error for which fault could be attached.

You may not be inclined to participate in premature conclusions however there are those that do including some media. My request is that for now we recognize their suffering and that of their loved ones without trying to suggest reasons for the disaster that might entail fault or blame.

I trust you now understand the thrust of my statement and that this clarification does not contravene your desire to learn about the facts of that event in order to learn from them. I am eager to learn the facts as well - when they are known.
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Old 24-03-2008, 07:41   #34
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FYI:

Large pieces of missing sailboat found

When asked why the yacht club's race committee had not called the Coast Guard, race manager Joanne McFee said: "That is not our responsibility. That's the responsibility of the family. We would only call the Coast Guard if we had been apprised of a boat in distress. There was no report of a boat in distress, therefore there was nothing to call the Coast Guard about."

"I know that I didn't call the Coast Guard," (IYC Commodore) Mewes said. "I didn't have their phone number. Now, I do."

(my emphasis)
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Old 24-03-2008, 15:02   #35
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I am sure the club, and possibly more clubs on the bay will take a look at their procedures. I think it was rather cold to say it was not the clubs responsibility to call the C.G. It is possible the left, and right hand doesn't know what the other is doing.

When you think of the weather that existed, the last strange sighting, and the no show of Daisy that some alarms would have went off earlier?
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Old 24-03-2008, 21:18   #36
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Guess what happens if yacht clubs start getting the blame or start becoming responsible for the safety of racers? ...they will stop sponsoring races because nobody will want to pay for their increased insurance premiums. So much for the sport if that happens.

The individual skipper needs to be responsible for all aspects of safety. The blame shifting that has become so prevalent in our litigious society needs to stop before it wrecks yacht racing.
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Old 25-03-2008, 07:43   #37
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I think the club should be able to make a call. Yes I understand that a skipper has to be responsible. If someone was about to be run over I would surely shout a warning.

When you see a sail behind you, and it is gone quickly. That also should be a warning. I am not putting blame anywhere. I am saying from this bad incident that everything should be looked at differently.

I wasn't there so I
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Old 25-03-2008, 07:45   #38
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can't make judgement on anyone, and I definately not want club to stop spnsoring races. I use to crew on S.F Bay, and singlehanded it for nearly 2 decades. Sometimes something like this just opens our eyes to take another look at procedure, such as being a little more aware.
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Old 05-04-2008, 20:43   #39
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Most recent Latitude 38 has a good story recapping what is known to date regarding "Daisy" and her crew. They recount a similar story with a different outcome from a few years prior that seems likely/illustrative.

We were out that day, at that time, almost in that place, "getting our feet wet" on a windy Saturday. Right up until the GG bridge, it was definately okay and not much more than a good blustery day on the bay. We were going to head out on the tail of the ebb into slack, turn and come in and ride the flood all the way up to San Rafael. At 3-ish, we got hit with the 30kt + gusts just outside, and wimped out, sticking close to the bridge vs. heading out past Pt Bonita. Even though the currents weren't running as big as they can there, the conditions were "eye opening". We are not from the Bay area, and although we've done a lot of bluewater passages, I'll be the first to tell you that learning to negotiate the seas in the SF Bay channel with winds, ebbs and floods is challenging, tricky, and not like any other sailing we've ever done, to include up in the Straits of Georgia. I agree with readers here --- if you haven't sailed it, it is kinda hard to get your brain around the reality of it. We were not equipped on that Saturday to handle those conditions.

And yet --- sounds like these guys were used to the conditions and knew what they were getting into --- and the broaching theory coupled with an older boat......makes sense. Like many here, we are reminded that there are no "walk in the park" days out on the water, esp. once you leave the Bay and head out into the Pacific. Club racing here has a whole new meaning to it, we are finding!

Thanks for letting me write --- a bit of catharsis, still thoughtful about it all. God bless them all ---- and may finger point cease and we just all acknowledge that we take risks in life from our choices, and we take responsibility for their outcomes. At least, I like to think that way.
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Old 05-04-2008, 23:01   #40
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Last week another boat had it's crew pitched out of the boat in a race outside the bay. Freak wave surfed the boat into the trough where the bow buried and the boat broached ejecting the crew overboard. Fortunately for the crew, several boats witnessed it and picked them up. The CG tried to get on the boat which survived intact but the seas were too rough. They did throw an epirb on board so the boat has been tracked. Unfortunately, the owners didn't have the 10s of thousands of dollars that an air search and tow boat would have taken and insurance company wouldn't pay for it. The boat is still floating around out there though the Epirb has probably run down it's batteries by now.

Would be willing to bet a similar thing happened to the CL or they were pooped with the companionway open. Don't think the accident had anything to do with the age of the sailors or the boat. Just being in the wrong place at the wrong time and unsuspecting.

The approach to the gate is notorious for freak waves
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Old 05-04-2008, 23:15   #41
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A very sad and tragic event. My sympathies go to all who knew this crew.
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Old 06-04-2008, 14:26   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by windsaloft View Post
Most recent Latitude 38 has a good story recapping what is known to date regarding "Daisy" and her crew. They recount a similar story with a different outcome from a few years prior that seems likely/illustrative.

We were out that day, at that time, almost in that place, "getting our feet wet" on a windy Saturday. Right up until the GG bridge, it was definately okay and not much more than a good blustery day on the bay. We were going to head out on the tail of the ebb into slack, turn and come in and ride the flood all the way up to San Rafael. At 3-ish, we got hit with the 30kt + gusts just outside, and wimped out, sticking close to the bridge vs. heading out past Pt Bonita. Even though the currents weren't running as big as they can there, the conditions were "eye opening". We are not from the Bay area, and although we've done a lot of bluewater passages, I'll be the first to tell you that learning to negotiate the seas in the SF Bay channel with winds, ebbs and floods is challenging, tricky, and not like any other sailing we've ever done, to include up in the Straits of Georgia. I agree with readers here --- if you haven't sailed it, it is kinda hard to get your brain around the reality of it. We were not equipped on that Saturday to handle those conditions.

And yet --- sounds like these guys were used to the conditions and knew what they were getting into --- and the broaching theory coupled with an older boat......makes sense. Like many here, we are reminded that there are no "walk in the park" days out on the water, esp. once you leave the Bay and head out into the Pacific. Club racing here has a whole new meaning to it, we are finding!

Thanks for letting me write --- a bit of catharsis, still thoughtful about it all. God bless them all ---- and may finger point cease and we just all acknowledge that we take risks in life from our choices, and we take responsibility for their outcomes. At least, I like to think that way.
Nice letter. Its really hard to describe what the conditions can be like out there unless you have actually seen it for yourself. At times it can have the worst of all the variables and sometimes its a duck pond.
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Old 16-11-2015, 10:45   #43
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Re: Tragedy in San Francisco

I realize this is a retired thread, but I shot some video from the lighthouse on the point right near the entrance to SF Bay. It shows a 15 - 20' sneaker wave form and break several hundred yards offshore. It also shows a cabin cruiser that had just traversed that area a couple minutes before.

It was a calm day, with light winds and a gentle swell. This wave came out of nowhere and would have capsized yachts of large proportion.

https://youtu.be/AZ9kru3KLDE
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Old 16-11-2015, 13:36   #44
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Re: Tragedy in San Francisco

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Originally Posted by r_p_ryan View Post
I realize this is a retired thread, but I shot some video from the lighthouse on the point right near the entrance to SF Bay. It shows a 15 - 20' sneaker wave form and break several hundred yards offshore. It also shows a cabin cruiser that had just traversed that area a couple minutes before.

It was a calm day, with light winds and a gentle swell. This wave came out of nowhere and would have capsized yachts of large proportion.

https://youtu.be/AZ9kru3KLDE
That's crazy. I am going to share with some sailing buds. The Potato Patch (a part of Four Fathom Bank) is only about 20 feet and a good reason to stay out of there when it's anything other than near flat calm, especially in winter!
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Old 16-11-2015, 23:00   #45
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Re: Tragedy in San Francisco

Wow. It looks like a strong ebb was flowing out the Gate, which only makes conditions worse. The Potato Patch can be deadly.
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