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Old 24-02-2013, 12:24   #46
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shoaling at ponce inlet and surrounding area

i'm based in daytona beach and regularly sail out of ponce inlet, use the halifax river and the icw, and go south to new smyrna beach and beyond. there is a coast guard station at ponce inlet.

the entire area i just described has random shoaling problems. the coast guard does try to mark the shoaling with temporary floating bouys, which they move from time to time. they cannot be expected to make daily forays to measure and move the markers, particularly since the area in question is not the only one they have marked. just their presence alone should alert any 'prudent mariner' of shoaling conditions. furthermore, with a 2.5 foot tidal range, any 'prudent mariner' would consider the state of tide before transiting suspect areas.

i'm not implying that the robinsons are not prudent mariners. they're lifelong sailors. they made it south through georgia, which i consider worse than florida in the matter of shoaling. i might have easily done the same thing they did, as would any of us. i hope they can get through this with their resolve to go on intact, and enough 'wherewithal' to continue.

fair winds and following seas to the crew of primrose.
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Old 24-02-2013, 12:32   #47
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Re: S/V Primrose grounds and sinks on ICW near Ponce

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Originally Posted by scimitar View Post
technically speaking in someway yes. othervise there would be no notice, notice is given in case of navigational hazards, something changed and until that change is "fixed" or become rule or until someone put or move channel marks, buoys or any mark for safer navigation.
if they read this notice they would not go there, would they.
but i am afraid that they are one of those that are using for navigation iphone, ipad, ipod, raspberry, strawberry and other wild fruits ( with "charts" last time updated 5 or 10 years go)and then blame colombo for discovering america. like that "captain" in bahamas cays recently.

...there is, let say, sunken barge in the canal and you have notice that there is sunken barge but still there is old markers/buoys "channel open for navigation". you would discard notice and proceed straight ahead an then blame , who, chart maker because in meantime they did not updated charts with "wreck" or say notice can not overrule markers and because that I proceed straight ahead. tell that your insurance company next time
I assume most sailors with any experience cruising Fla. & Bahamian waters know the age-old saying that there are only two types of sailors, the ones who have run aground, and the ones who are lying about it!

Have we read or heard anything about the couple from Primrose blaming anyone or using imprudent navigational techniques or equipment? S#%^ happens . . . .
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Old 24-02-2013, 12:42   #48
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backing down on your rudder

our club owns a pearson 30 we regularly sail out of ponce inlet, negotiating shoal areas coming and going. the pearson 30 has a fairly deep rudder hung on it's shaft with no skeg. those qualified to use it have been cautioned not to back down on the rudder if they go aground.

one of our members did, however, back down after running onto a shoal just slightly off the line of the icw. bent it right over. couple thousand dollars later and we have a new rudder and shaft.

what troubles me is that the bottom in this area is mostly mud over sand. you would think it would be easy to back out with little or no damage. but it happens. i've done it in my boat but my rudder is hung on a substantial skeg AND the bottom of the rudder is above the bottom of the skeg.

i notice that on primrose the rudder is below the skeg. makes me think that the rudder bending is what caused the skeg to snap. that's a pretty long lever arm from bottom of that rudder to skeg/hull attachment point. and yes, it looks as though the skeg may have been glassed on after the hull was made. also, the skeg appears to be 'hollow' so that when it snapped it left this gaping hole.

i checked my skeg. it's NOT hollow and there is no 'skeg hole' in the hull. reinforces my belief in the strong construction of the old csy's...
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Old 24-02-2013, 16:11   #49
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Re: S/V Primrose grounds and sinks on ICW near Ponce

What a shame. That's a Moody 42 designed by, wait for it, Angus Primrose, and built in England. I once delivered one from Puerto Banus, Spain via Gibraltar, Vilamoura, Portugual and Horta, Azores to Halifax, Nova Scotia in May of 1985. Boat did pretty well for a family coastal cruiser.
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Old 24-02-2013, 16:42   #50
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Re: S/V Primrose grounds and sinks on ICW near Ponce

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Question: What does "follow the magenta markers" mean?
There's a magenta line drawn down the main ICW channel on NOAA charts, leading to the old saying to "follow the magenta line." It is just there to indicate the main channel, not for precise positioning within the channel. As to immediately moving the markers, most of the ICW markers are daymarks--green squares or red triangles mounted on tall pilings. Moving one of those is more involved than just moving a buoy. In this case #8 is a red daymark on a piling and 8A is a floating buoy that is easier to move. I believe that 8A was added after 8 in order to better mark the encroaching shoal on that side of the channel--people were cutting that corner and going aground. In general, one should stay in the middle of the ICW channel and well away from these daymarks that are often on the shoal--not in deep water. However, in this case we don't yet know the extent of the shoaling. You can see the shoaling in Bing.
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Old 24-02-2013, 17:32   #51
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Re: S/V Primrose grounds and sinks on ICW near Ponce

Went through Ponce a bit over a week ago at low water, southbound. There's plenty of water there, you just have to go slow and look for it. There is a problem with old Moodys. A lawsuit over rudders falling off. Quite a few years ago but a search might be enlightening. The guy was all over the net looking for similar incidents with Moody rudders falling off.
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Old 25-02-2013, 07:37   #52
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Re: S/V Primrose grounds and sinks on ICW near Ponce

Wow, this sucks for the owners. I consider any inlet to be pretty dangerous and try to get local knowledge about them. But the only safe bet is to never leave the dock.

I'm really shocked that Sea Tow was able to save the boat. Once the damage was done, I imagine there were a lot of correct decisions that kept Primrose from being a loss.
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Old 25-02-2013, 14:15   #53
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Re: S/V Primrose grounds and sinks on ICW near Ponce

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Wow, this sucks for the owners. I consider any inlet to be pretty dangerous and try to get local knowledge about them. ................

It should be noted that this grounding did not occur in the dangerous waves and dynamics of the inlet. The ICW takes a course full away from the inlet and it is in water that is completely protected. At the location indicated in the photos above and at the juncture of the ICW north of the inlet (where far more groundings occur) there are no waves or surge from the inlet. No experienced cruisers respect the magenta line near the shoals that are prevelent near inlets and this cut west of Ponce Inlet has and continues to have nuns and cans that are regularly moved. I am not convinced from the reposts that the grounding was south of the inlet, but I would guess, until there's more information that this was on the north of the inlet and between Daytona and Ponce Inlet,- not between New Smyrna and Ponce Inlet. Much seems to have been posted that relys on an earlier assumption of the position of the event. Regardless, if the Robinson's were passing from Daytona to New Smyrna via the ICW; then, they never were in Ponce Inlet.

I do agree that the hole in the Moody appears to show a fared edge where a former repair was made to attach the skeg.
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Old 25-02-2013, 14:34   #54
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Re: S/V Primrose grounds and sinks on ICW near Ponce

My first thoughts when I saw that picture were that the boat had been previously damaged in a hurricane or accident and just had a hasty repair job slapped on by someone trying to make a big buck in a hurry or someone just trying to get rid of it without regard to the new owners safety. That surely was a very poor repair and given Moody's reputation I feel pretty sure it wasn't a build problem. It would be nice to know the boat's history.
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Old 25-02-2013, 14:38   #55
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Re: S/V Primrose grounds and sinks on ICW near Ponce

captforce - i live and sail in the area and i know what you are referring to. from the pictures i'm certain it was to the south of the inlet.

the icw does not pass in front of the inlet. the halifax river does. the icw goes 'inland' for a few miles, turning west off the halifax a few miles north of ponce inlet and re-entering the halifax river just south of the inlet. it's known to the ponce inlet coast guard station as 'government cut' and was referred to as such during the vhf broadcast i heard the day of the grounding. a look at the charts would probably explain it better than i can.

both 'entrances' to the icw cut off the halifax river are prone to shoaling (ask me how i know). both are marked by floating bouys which coast guard ponce inlet maintains. once inside the cut there is deep water all the way. i always go dead slow when entering or leaving the cut so any grounding will hopefully be slight. but i have local knowledge.

i have to say that in the ten years i've been in this area i've seen/heard of many groundings there. but this has to be the first one i know of where a boat was so seriously damaged. makes me wonder more about the boat than about the crew.
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Old 25-02-2013, 14:52   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onestepcsy37 View Post
both 'entrances' to the icw cut off the halifax river are prone to shoaling (ask me how i know). both are marked by floating bouys which coast guard ponce inlet maintains. once inside the cut there is deep water all the way. i always go dead slow when entering or leaving the cut so any grounding will hopefully be slight. but i have local knowledge.
Good to know the shoaling is marked like it should. Seems we don't have to read bulletins for every mile we sail through marked channels after all, like some here wanted us to believe

well, except in the FL keys where markers mean sh/t...
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Old 25-02-2013, 15:04   #57
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Re: S/V Primrose grounds and sinks on ICW near Ponce

onestepcsy37, I am also nearby and I frequent the area. I read some of the local news reports and found that the grounding did indeed take place between New Smyrna and the inlet. I have found fewer problems there, but I know there is shoaling. I agree that the structure of the boat (likely a repair from a former incident) is more suspect than the actions of the crew or the marking of the ICW. It is also not uncommon for people to misinterpret junction bouys as the one located there or to misjudge the leeway resulting from the junction of currents. Regardless, groundings here in mud and sand without the surge and waves of the inlet should not result in that kind of damage.
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Old 25-02-2013, 15:22   #58
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Re: S/V Primrose grounds and sinks on ICW near Ponce

captforce, you are spot on about the junction bouys. can be really confusing sometimes if you're not looking ahead on the charts and knowing what to expect...
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Old 25-02-2013, 15:52   #59
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Watch the video and you will know where this is...if you are from the area.
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Old 25-02-2013, 16:08   #60
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Re: S/V Primrose grounds and sinks on ICW near Ponce

Folks, take a look back at page 1 of this thread where the position was identified. It was in that little area near the R18 daymark, the R18A buoy, and the green and red can in the ICW. If you look at the aerial shot I posted you can see the shoal building out clearly from near the R18, and the Notices to Mariners also identifies the area as having shoaling. However, in the aerial shot it looks like they may have been over to close to the green and red can. In any case, it is in that area. Based on this Bing aerial (below), it looks like the best water would be to split the distance between the R18A and the GR can, just like the boat in the photo is. But that is just an educated guess--requires a careful approach, especially near low tide!



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