Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 02-12-2008, 08:50   #1
Sponsoring Vendor

Community Sponsor

Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 24
Images: 64
Pirates....again.....

The Associated Press: Pirates fire on US cruise ship in hijack attempt
Casco Bay is offline  
Old 02-12-2008, 09:39   #2
Moderator Emeritus
 
David M's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: San Francisco Bay
Boat: research vessel
Posts: 10,152
Just keep it up...their day of reckoning is coming.
__________________

__________________
David

Life begins where land ends.
David M is offline  
Old 02-12-2008, 09:46   #3
Senior Cruiser
 
sneuman's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2003
Location: Jamaica
Boat: Tayana 37 Cutter
Posts: 3,167
Images: 37
I have to wonder aloud here what the hell a cruise ship was doing anywhere near the east African coast. The run was a monthlong Rome to Singapore run. Therefore they were roughly 2 weeks out. It's not like the rash of hijackings just crept up on them.

Corporate greed knows no bounds.
__________________
Voyage of Symbiosis: http://svsymbiosis.blogspot.com/
sneuman is offline  
Old 02-12-2008, 10:09   #4
Registered User
 
svHyLyte's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Tampa Bay area, USA
Boat: Beneteau First 42
Posts: 3,434
Images: 25
sneuman--

The Gulf of Adan is at the base of the Red Sea and must be traversed to reach the Indian Ocean and, eventually, Singapore. The 500+ mile north coast of Somalia forms the southern shore of the Gulf and Yemen the north. At it's mid-point, the Gulf is only 175 miles wide--an easy reach for Somali's that have ranged as far as 500 miles from their coastline in search of ships.

In my view, the CBU-87 would be a perfect solution to clearing Somali's from the Gulf.
__________________
"It is not so much for its beauty that the Sea makes a claim upon men's hearts, as for that subtle something, that quality of air, that emanation from the waves, that so wonderfully renews a weary spirit."
svHyLyte is offline  
Old 02-12-2008, 10:30   #5
Senior Cruiser
 
sneuman's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2003
Location: Jamaica
Boat: Tayana 37 Cutter
Posts: 3,167
Images: 37
I'm familiar with the geography. My point was the ship never should have set out from Rome given the necessity to traverse the Seuz and Horn of Africa.
__________________
Voyage of Symbiosis: http://svsymbiosis.blogspot.com/
sneuman is offline  
Old 02-12-2008, 12:13   #6
Senior Cruiser
 
roverhi's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Kona, Hawaii, Carlsbad, CA
Boat: 1969 Pearson 35 #108 & 1976 Sabre 28
Posts: 6,006
Send a message via Yahoo to roverhi
So we should stop using the Suez Canal and and go around the Cape of Good Hope. Only adds thousands of miles to the voyage along a not so interesting coast which all the passengers would love to take the time not to see.

If corporate greed is about staying in business, more power to the Cruise ship company. They cannot increase the tarriff to compensate for the additional miles of a Cape passage. A typical cruise ship has the speed to outrun any mother ship the pirates might have and make it extremely dangerous to board if one of the small boats caught up with them. There are thousands of ships passing through the canal for the few that get hijacked. The risks are low for this type of ship.

The question is why is Europe and Gulf States putting up with this crap. Stationing a couple of helocopter carriers off the Somali coast to discover, monitor and destroy pirate craft would discourage the pirates in a hurry. The only reason the pirates are active is none of the countries effected have the backbone to stop it. BTW, don't think it's our responsibility to take the lead in this. We've got enough on our plate. It's about time Europe takes some responsibility for their own safety instead of crying to us to be the heavies.

Aloha
Peter O.
__________________
roverhi is offline  
Old 03-12-2008, 04:24   #7
Senior Cruiser
 
sneuman's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2003
Location: Jamaica
Boat: Tayana 37 Cutter
Posts: 3,167
Images: 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by roverhi View Post
So we should stop using the Suez Canal and and go around the Cape of Good Hope. Only adds thousands of miles to the voyage along a not so interesting coast which all the passengers would love to take the time not to see.

If corporate greed is about staying in business, more power to the Cruise ship company. They cannot increase the tarriff to compensate for the additional miles of a Cape passage. A typical cruise ship has the speed to outrun any mother ship the pirates might have and make it extremely dangerous to board if one of the small boats caught up with them. There are thousands of ships passing through the canal for the few that get hijacked. The risks are low for this type of ship.

The question is why is Europe and Gulf States putting up with this crap. Stationing a couple of helocopter carriers off the Somali coast to discover, monitor and destroy pirate craft would discourage the pirates in a hurry. The only reason the pirates are active is none of the countries effected have the backbone to stop it. BTW, don't think it's our responsibility to take the lead in this. We've got enough on our plate. It's about time Europe takes some responsibility for their own safety instead of crying to us to be the heavies.

Aloha
Peter O.
I'm only suggesting that there is a time and a place and right now is not the time to be in that place. Maybe next month, maybe next year. I agree something needs to be done, but obviously that hasn't happened as yet and it seems irresponsible for the cruise ship line to ply these waters right now.
__________________
Voyage of Symbiosis: http://svsymbiosis.blogspot.com/
sneuman is offline  
Old 03-12-2008, 04:45   #8
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 4,413
I don't approve of piracy.

But I would like to know why they are doing what they are doing. I assume it is to make money. There are plenty of rapacious "legimate" companies who do the same thing - make money any way they can.

I read somewhere that the Somali problem started as a reaction to commercial fishing destroying the local mom and pop fishing "industry" and they began by "attacking" commercial fishing - in a sort of economic war for survival. If true, what options did these guys have against the big boys? File suit in the court somewhere?

The Somali situation should not only focus the world on the illegal aspect of piracy, but on the fact that we have some serious economic problems of exploitation and a growing underclass that is willing to strike back because they don't see their issues being adressed, or even the forum to address them. They see it as a dog eat dog world, stacked against them in every way and they will use whatever they can to survive.

Adam Smith meet Darwin.
__________________
Sandero is offline  
Old 03-12-2008, 07:11   #9
Senior Cruiser
 
Talbot's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Brighton, UK
Boat: Privilege 37
Posts: 3,579
Images: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by roverhi View Post
The question is why is Europe and Gulf States putting up with this crap.

It's about time Europe takes some responsibility for their own safety instead of crying to us to be the heavies.
I suggest you do some investigation of the situation prior to opening your mouth on this. For a start, this is not a problem that is purely located in the Gulf of Aden. It is a world wide issue, including West Indies, and Straits of Malacca.

What are the Rules of Engagement for blowing a "pirate ship" out of the water, and how do you know it is one rather than an innocent fisherman going about his business - unless you catch them in the act. Even then, how do you react against a ship with an explosive cargo full of hostages.
USA may be able to do so on behalf of a US flagged merchantman, but most merchies these days are flying flags of convenience so cannot be protected as easily. However UNCLOS does provide some autority in this matter - specifically articles 105 and 110.

As for Europe needing to do something. I quote from UNSecurity Resolution 1838(2008):
Commending
the contribution made by some States since November 2007 to
protect the World Food Programme (WFP) maritime convoys, and, the
establishment by the European Union of a coordination unit with the task of
supporting the surveillance and protection activities carried out by some member
States of the European Union off the coast of Somalia, and the ongoing planning
process towards a possible European Union naval operation, as well as other
international or national initiatives taken with a view to implementing resolutions

1814 (2008) and 1816 (2008).
You are also probably ignorant of the fact that Sommalia claims Territorial Waters of 200nm, and whilst warships have right of inocent passage through these waters, chasing a pirate boat is not innocent passage, therefore this requires agreement with the Government of Sommalia. The main Problem area is the proclaimed Autonomous Region of Puntland. The President of the Transitional Government in Somalia is a senior member of one of the most influential clans in Puntland.

To say that this is not straight forward is a massive understatement. You then need to look at the impact of organised crime in these communities, and how this is destroying the livelihood of the non-criminal.

If you cut off the piracy and dont replace it with something quickly, you risk severely escalating the humanitarian disaster that is predicted to happen over the next 12 months with over 3 million needing food aid in Sommalia alone.

There is a lot of impetus to do something, but that something needs to solve both the piracy and the underlying causes of it, otherwise we will either kill a lot of innocent people or fail to achieve anything.
__________________
"Be wary of strong drink. It can make you shoot at tax collectors - and miss."
Robert A Heinlein
Talbot is offline  
Old 03-12-2008, 07:58   #10
Registered User
 
Hampus's Avatar

Join Date: May 2008
Location: Sweden
Boat: Between boats
Posts: 463
Images: 6
Send a message via MSN to Hampus
Well said Talbot.

One solution to the whole territorial water issue is what Germany is doing. They are considering deploying 1400 soldiers in the area, including a frigate already stationed there. The mission is supposed to be "on board escort".
__________________
http://adventureswithsyingeborg.blogspot.com/
On the way back to Sweden.
Hampus is offline  
Old 03-12-2008, 09:54   #11
sitting on the dock of the bay

Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,513
Images: 6
Send a message via Yahoo to gonesail
Quote:
Originally Posted by roverhi View Post
So we should stop using the Suez Canal and and go around the Cape of Good Hope.
why would anybody use the suez canal after all of the recent reported violence?
__________________
sometimes the things that may or may not be true are the things a man needs to believe in the most.
gonesail is offline  
Old 03-12-2008, 13:11   #12
Senior Cruiser
 
senormechanico's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2003
Boat: Dragonfly 1000 trimaran
Posts: 5,830
Talbot,
"If you cut off the piracy and dont replace it with something quickly, you risk severely escalating the humanitarian disaster that is predicted to happen over the next 12 months with over 3 million needing food aid in Sommalia alone.

There is a lot of impetus to do something, but that something needs to solve both the piracy and the underlying causes of it, otherwise we will either kill a lot of innocent people or fail to achieve anything."

Imho, these guys are not Robin Hood types.
What makes you think those supposedly noble pirates are using the money to feed those poor starving Somalis? Show me the evidence of that.



__________________
senormechanico is offline  
Old 03-12-2008, 13:47   #13
Senior Cruiser
 
Talbot's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Brighton, UK
Boat: Privilege 37
Posts: 3,579
Images: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by senormechanico View Post
Imho, these guys are not Robin Hood types.
What makes you think those supposedly noble pirates are using the money to feed those poor starving Somalis? Show me the evidence of that.
Of course they are not Robin Hood, but the amount of money that is moving around creates jobs, which create needs, which creates a service industry, which also needs people etc etc etc

You would need to study economics and have access to info on this area to truly understand what is going on. I dont profess to know it all, but have taken the time to delve a little. Of course the ones that are really getting screwed are those who used to be satisfied with their fishery. Now they are being given a glimpse of a world with more shiney toys, but eventually that world will collapse and they will be unable to go back to what they were doing, because their boats will have been destroyed, and also the fishery stocks massacred by far eastern fishery factory ships.
__________________
"Be wary of strong drink. It can make you shoot at tax collectors - and miss."
Robert A Heinlein
Talbot is offline  
Old 03-12-2008, 14:01   #14
֍֎֍֎֍֎֍֎֍֎

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 13,055
Nice theories, but in practice all that is needed is to send in a couple of qships, each under remote control and containing a conventional weapon. I'd say a "daisy cutter" but there are newer jobs that make those look like toys.

Anyone boards forcibly, you push the red button and anything within a half mile of the qship will be gone.

Anyone in Somalia has a complaint, they can file it in the UN. The "UNForces", as they are quite fondly known, know how to file paperwork.

Other peoples, in other times and other places, have repeatedly brought themselves out of lawlessness and poverty without turning to preying on the passerby. You want to help a Somali now? OK, adopt one, bring him or her out for a better chance elsewhere.

Leave the nicety of complex economic justifications for asocial behavior for the bleeding hearts.
__________________
hellosailor is offline  
Old 03-12-2008, 14:11   #15
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: STL MO
Boat: we don't need no steenking boat-we walk on water...
Posts: 51
Oh boy! A UN resolution! that will take care of these pirates!
We all know what the world thinks about UN resolutions.
And we know what weight they carry...NONE.

Why isn't the Somalian government taking care of its own problem?

The amount of money moving around creates jobs....and the "pirates" (they are actually terrorists) are aquiring that money illegally!

BTW-who is funding these people? These aren't poor, starving people who scraped up a little dough and bought a little boat, they are well funded.
__________________

__________________
Ignorant enough to be dangerous and smart enough to know it.
Guzzi is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Just Out Looking for Pirates TaoJones The Library 41 18-02-2010 06:01
There are pirates, and there are pirates... Amgine Cruising News & Events 24 21-01-2009 19:47
Pirates/Piracy easterly Cruising News & Events 15 23-11-2008 13:50
Pirates- Look out! delmarrey Health, Safety & Related Gear 0 27-11-2005 14:52
No Pirates Here !!! GordMay Health, Safety & Related Gear 1 22-08-2005 06:22



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 16:14.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.