Mexico confiscated 380 yachts - MERGED THREADS

[Celestialsailor]

Originally Posted by chouliha

Grant - well said!

What hundreds of boats not having the correct paperwork WTF? In a foreign country? If this was a IQ test.......

"I stumbled upon needing a TIP by accident" Oh give me a break. Just about every guide book mentions this requirement. Not doing your homework is not grounds for saying "no one told me"

Not enough fiber in your diet today? If I may elaborate...I was unaware it could be done online. I was given the link by a fellow cruiser which had been posted as a link at a Mexican Marina in Ensenada, online. I linked it, filled it out and received it State side very quickly. This apparently saves a lot of time checking in once in Mexico. And yes, you can obtain one from your port of entry. By the way...I did not say "No one told me".

[rebel heart]

Originally Posted by Celestialsailor

it surprises me that they just cannot check with the Marina office for their list, then knock on the boats that are not on the list. I guess it's a case of job security.

It wasn't port-captained sanctioned; it was probably the same guys who X-ray luggage at the airport who hopped in the truck and went to the marina to inspect for customs violations there. Aduana are crooks. You can jump through 50 flaming hoops on your paperwork just to be met by some guy who says he doesn't care and wants your 12% duty in cash, now, and points you to an ATM.
Happens in Puerto Vallarta airport frequently; it's happen to me.

I agree completely with someone above who said Mexico is an easy place for foreign sailors. But the minute you step into the legal system everything goes batshit.

[SV THIRD DAY]

More facts for the Sky is falling folks as published today in Latidude 38's Letronic Latitude.


Latitude 38 - 'Lectronic Latitude


TIPs and Rumors About 'Seized' Boats

December 2, 2013 – The World of Paperwork in Mexico
One of the ways in which Mexico is culturally different from the United States is that for many years some laws seem to be enforced very loosely, if at all, then all of a sudden a government agency seems to go over the top with enforcement. That's what has happened recently with the Servicio de Administración Tributaria (Tax Administration Service) branch of the Mexican government. On November 26 members of its staff began checking the Temporary Import Permits of all the foreign boats in a total of 10 marinas.
In the case of marinas in San Carlos, Kirsten Grossman de Zaragoza, the general manager of Marina Seca, says 40 inspectors showed up. They were backed by 30 heavily armed guards from the Armada, apparently in case boat owners decided to resist. Similar scenes played out up and down coast. To show how determined the SAT was, Grossman reports they worked through the night until 6 a.m. — although they didn't set foot on any boats.
A Temporary Import Permit (TIP) allows foreigners to bring their boats in and out of Mexico as many times as they want without having to pay import duty. When we got ours for Profligate back in 1997, they were good for 20 years. More recently, they have been good for just 10 years. The cost is a very reasonable $50.
The easiest way to get a TIP is to apply online at www.banjercito.com.mx. It takes about 14 days to get a TIP. Meanwhile, you can use your credit card receipt as proof that you are in the process of obtaining a TIP. "I applied for three TIPs online in the last few months," reports John 'Woody' Skoriak of Sausalito. "They were sent to me almost immediately by DHL. It was a much more efficient process than U.S. Coast Guard documentation."
The other way to get a TIP is at a port that has a Banjercito, which is a Mexican military bank. This would mean places such as Ensenada, La Paz and Puerto Vallarta, but not Cabo San Lucas. But doing it online is the easiest and least time consuming.
In the past, nobody seemed to care that much about TIPS. As long as your boat didn't stay in Mexico longer than the length of your tourist visa — 180 days — and as long as you didn't leave Mexico without your boat, you theoretically didn't need one. While most marinas asked for a copy of your TIP when you checked in, lots of them didn't follow through if you didn't have it on you when you first came into the office. Now all foreign boats need them, and all marinas are insisting on seeing them before allowing any boats in.
We talked to many people who had their boats checked by officials from SAT, and all went swimmingly. Those who didn't have their TIPS on file with the marina were given five days to have one on file with the marina office. For example, four days and 22 hours into the deadline, the Wanderer and Doña de Mallorca, traveling inland, knew nothing about it. We then, while riding a bus from Guadalajara back to La Cruz, got a call from Mike Danielson of PV Sails saying the marina office needed a copy of Profligate's TIP within the next 90 minutes. Fortunately, de Mallorca knew where the document was, and Danielson took it up to the Marina Riviera Nayarit office. Once that was done, we were good.
To our knowledge, no boats on the hook were checked for current TIPs.
For whatever reason, apparently a lot of foreign boats either didn't have a TIP or didn't have one on file with the marina — the latter, in theory, being "responsible" for your boat if you leave the country without your boat. Those not in compliance with the TIP law were/are subject to fines and even seizure, although we have yet to hear of any boats being fined or seized, and we certainly don't expect any boats to be seized.
A couple of days ago we received an email from a friend of John Hards of the Beneteau 36 Pelican, currently in a marina in Nuevo Vallarta, saying Hards reported that, as of November 29, "60 boats had been seized" by "rogue officials," and that "yellow tape had been used to secure the seized boats." According to the email, "[Hards'] new TIP, validated by the military and Banjercito, had been declared invalid by the rogues." His new TIP, it was said, didn't show up on SAT's computer so, according to this letter, his boat had been 'seized', with yellow tape put around it, and Hards was not allowed to stay onboard. The friend was shocked because Hards had been cruising Mexico for 16 years, was laid back and well-known by locals, was familiar with the customs, and never had had a bad word to say about Mexico. The email ended with "have had no reply and no radio contact" with Hards, mildly implying that he might be in a wretched Mexican prison, likely never to be heard from again.
The term "rogue" is incendiary, of course, as it suggests out-of-control government officials imperiously abusing foreigners. While there may be some truth to this in cases of DWG — 'driving while gringo' — just before Christmas when officers need to buy presents for their kids, it hasn't been our experience with boats in Mexico. And we've had a boat in Mexico almost every winter for three decades now.
Fortunately, and not surprisingly to us, Hards is not in a Mexican prison. The SAT officials aren't "rogue." His boat wasn't "seized" in any common understanding of the term, or even wrapped in yellow tape. Furthermore, Hards will not have to make the long trip to Guadalajara to clear things up because the Port Captain in Nuevo Vallarta will take care of it. According to Hards' update email, the problem was that the marina Hards' boat was in didn't have his boat's TIP on file.
What is the chance of a boat being confiscated in Mexico over a TIP violation? We believe nil. There was a minor stink a number of years ago when, as we recall, the owners of about four foreign boats in Mexico were not only found to not have TIPs, but inexplicably refused to get them for their boats. As we recall, after government officials all but pleaded with these folks to come in compliance with the law, the boats — all of them old and beat up — were indeed seized. But trust us, the Mexican government wants two things: 1) Marine tourists in Mexico to be happy; 2) Marine tourists to respect and comply with Mexican law. Fortunately, it's easy to accomplish both.

- latitude / richard

[Cabofishing]

It is true. We have a boat in Cabo San Lucas that was embargoed. Inspectors from Mexico City came unannounced on Tuesday before Thanksgiving (when they know many US owners would be home) and just asked the people they could find on a boat for their papers - no other explanation and no indication of what they were looking for. Papers are routinely inspected by local people and our captain keeps a file of the papers they want to see. We do not keep the temporary importation document in that file as it is not wanted by the local authorities. It was, however on the boat. Our captain gave them the file and asked them if that was all they needed or if they needed to see anything else. They told him no, that we were all good and left. The next morning we found papers taped to the boat that it was embargoed and could not leave the slip. Our papers, including the temporary importation, are in perfect order and they had no cause to embargo the boat. We understand that this was a coordinated sneak attack on American vessels in every marina in Mexico. We have faxed the temporary importation document to Mexico City which shows we are perfectly legal but they have not responded, saying they are studying the files. This is not the way a legitimate search for unauthorized vessels would be conducted.

[zeehag]

the mexifeds get their info from the marina.yes. they even use computerized information gathering.
they also read stuff folks publish online..in cruising forums and in facebook and other places folks like to rat selves out in public. you would be surprised how many folks do that.
visas and automobiles were purged in spring. this was going to happen art some point.
every regime has a starting point. land ownership here, boats, cars,visas..all interconnected and government controlled. do not believe this is a circus nor that mexico isnt fullly computerized and cleaning up its act.i have watched mexico as universalization policies were being finessed. this is not unexpected.

last regime wanted the tip placed on a prominent window. this regime wants it in with boat papers. go figger. i have always kept mine with paperwork.

[zeehag]

what latitude 38 said...quote:

IPs and Rumors About 'Seized' Boats

December 2, 2013 – The World of Paperwork in Mexico

One of the ways in which Mexico is culturally different from the United States is that for many years some laws seem to be enforced very loosely, if at all, then all of a sudden a government agency seems to go over the top with enforcement. That's what has happened recently with the Servicio de Administración Tributaria (Tax Administration Service) branch of the Mexican government. On November 26 members of its staff began checking the Temporary Import Permits of all the foreign boats in a total of 10 marinas.

In the case of marinas in San Carlos, Kirsten Grossman de Zaragoza, the general manager of Marina Seca, says 40 inspectors showed up. They were backed by 30 heavily armed guards from the Armada, apparently in case boat owners decided to resist. Similar scenes played out up and down coast. To show how determined the SAT was, Grossman reports they worked through the night until 6 a.m. — although they didn't set foot on any boats.

A Temporary Import Permit (TIP) allows foreigners to bring their boats in and out of Mexico as many times as they want without having to pay import duty. When we got ours for Profligate back in 1997, they were good for 20 years. More recently, they have been good for just 10 years. The cost is a very reasonable $50.

The easiest way to get a TIP is to apply online at Banco Nacional del Ejército Fuerza Aérea y Armada, S.N.C.. It takes about 14 days to get a TIP. Meanwhile, you can use your credit card receipt as proof that you are in the process of obtaining a TIP. "I applied for three TIPs online in the last few months," reports John 'Woody' Skoriak of Sausalito. "They were sent to me almost immediately by DHL. It was a much more efficient process than U.S. Coast Guard documentation."

The other way to get a TIP is at a port that has a Banjercito, which is a Mexican military bank. This would mean places such as Ensenada, La Paz and Puerto Vallarta, but not Cabo San Lucas. But doing it online is the easiest and least time consuming.

In the past, nobody seemed to care that much about TIPS. As long as your boat didn't stay in Mexico longer than the length of your tourist visa — 180 days — and as long as you didn't leave Mexico without your boat, you theoretically didn't need one. While most marinas asked for a copy of your TIP when you checked in, lots of them didn't follow through if you didn't have it on you when you first came into the office. Now all foreign boats need them, and all marinas are insisting on seeing them before allowing any boats in.

We talked to many people who had their boats checked by officials from SAT, and all went swimmingly. Those who didn't have their TIPS on file with the marina were given five days to have one on file with the marina office. For example, four days and 22 hours into the deadline, the Wanderer and Doña de Mallorca, traveling inland, knew nothing about it. We then, while riding a bus from Guadalajara back to La Cruz, got a call from Mike Danielson of PV Sails saying the marina office needed a copy of Profligate's TIP within the next 90 minutes. Fortunately, de Mallorca knew where the document was, and Danielson took it up to the Marina Riviera Nayarit office. Once that was done, we were good.

To our knowledge, no boats on the hook were checked for current TIPs.

For whatever reason, apparently a lot of foreign boats either didn't have a TIP or didn't have one on file with the marina — the latter, in theory, being "responsible" for your boat if you leave the country without your boat. Those not in compliance with the TIP law were/are subject to fines and even seizure, although we have yet to hear of any boats being fined or seized, and we certainly don't expect any boats to be seized.

A couple of days ago we received an email from a friend of John Hards of the Beneteau 36 Pelican, currently in a marina in Nuevo Vallarta, saying Hards reported that, as of November 29, "60 boats had been seized" by "rogue officials," and that "yellow tape had been used to secure the seized boats." According to the email, "[Hards'] new TIP, validated by the military and Banjercito, had been declared invalid by the rogues." His new TIP, it was said, didn't show up on SAT's computer so, according to this letter, his boat had been 'seized', with yellow tape put around it, and Hards was not allowed to stay onboard. The friend was shocked because Hards had been cruising Mexico for 16 years, was laid back and well-known by locals, was familiar with the customs, and never had had a bad word to say about Mexico. The email ended with "have had no reply and no radio contact" with Hards, mildly implying that he might be in a wretched Mexican prison, likely never to be heard from again.

The term "rogue" is incendiary, of course, as it suggests out-of-control government officials imperiously abusing foreigners. While there may be some truth to this in cases of DWG — 'driving while gringo' — just before Christmas when officers need to buy presents for their kids, it hasn't been our experience with boats in Mexico. And we've had a boat in Mexico almost every winter for three decades now.

Fortunately, and not surprisingly to us, Hards is not in a Mexican prison. The SAT officials aren't "rogue." His boat wasn't "seized" in any common understanding of the term, or even wrapped in yellow tape. Furthermore, Hards will not have to make the long trip to Guadalajara to clear things up because the Port Captain in Nuevo Vallarta will take care of it. According to Hards' update email, the problem was that the marina Hards' boat was in didn't have his boat's TIP on file.

What is the chance of a boat being confiscated in Mexico over a TIP violation? We believe nil. There was a minor stink a number of years ago when, as we recall, the owners of about four foreign boats in Mexico were not only found to not have TIPs, but inexplicably refused to get them for their boats. As we recall, after government officials all but pleaded with these folks to come in compliance with the law, the boats — all of them old and beat up — were indeed seized. But trust us, the Mexican government wants two things: 1) Marine tourists in Mexico to be happy; 2) Marine tourists to respect and comply with Mexican law. Fortunately, it's easy to accomplish both.

- latitude / richard

[highseas]

The reason TIP is not needed to be displayed in window is because after 2 years in sun,the 10 year permit is illegible.Better to have photocopies on hand and keep original safe with ships papers.

[zeehag]

exactly why i never added mine to my crazed hazy windows.

but, this is what the federales are seeking. tip with your other papers and a copy in the marina office..

eazy `peazy

[Celestialsailor]

Originally Posted by zeehag

.
they also read stuff folks publish online..in cruising forums and in facebook and other places folks like to rat selves out in public. you would be surprised how many folks do that.

and how exactly would they know who is who since everyone uses anonymous names?

[SV THIRD DAY]

Originally Posted by Celestialsailor

and how exactly would they know who is who since everyone uses anonymous names?

Ha ha ha ...

Adventures of Joli' Elle

I guess you missed the link to your Blog at the bottom of your signature line......being Anonymous on the internet is harder than you think. Just from your blog I can get your boat name and registered owners of the boat and the home address the USCG has on file for your Documentation and that doesn't even count what the folks at the NSA can do

Nov 16th:
"We now have 8 pounds of Tuna in the freezer."
Sure hope a Mexican Fishing license for all crew members was recorded as being purchased prior to catching all that Tuna.....see what I mean.

I'm not picking on you Amigo, just trying to make the point about the false Anonymity that is the internet these days. I’ve posted my entire live on our Cruising Blog and it has helped introduce us to many great people…but I also received a visit from the Mexican Navy while anchored in San Blas, Nayarit (complete with machine guns and face masks) over something I posted on my blog!

On another occasion I received an email from an insector at the FCC (yes the FCC in Washington DC) about a complaint that had been filed against me in Mexico. Seems a crazy man named Norm Goldie in San Blas had forwarded them my blog link along with complaints that I was "destroying the town of San Blas by interferring with official Port duty using my VHF radio". The fire was easily put out...but again...things I posted on a blog were being used against me and I had to explain them. This is why when I see people saying they would just slip out in the dead of night and break Mexican Law and they are very identifiable in the Mexican Cruiser Community, it makes be very nervous from personal experience and I would caution people to use a little self editing because you NEVER know what can be used against you these day in the land of Cyberspace.

[svseachange]

Sounds like Mexico is waaaaaaaay more advanced, understanding, organised and generous than the US when it comes to cruising sailboats. It would be wonderful if the US had a system as simple, inexpensive, centralised and transparent as described in the thread.

In the US every state CBP office has different, arbitrarily enforced set of rules and a different phone number. Sometimes different CBP sections within the same state have different phone numbers and different rules. Sometimes the rules provided are impossible to follow.

Every single time I move in Florida I need to call CBP for "permission to proceed". If I lose the confirmation number provided during any one of these call ins my boat might subject to fines and siezure. Remember, these rules ate subject to change in every US state travelled through so it is easy to be accidentally out of compliance.

And then there are the state law enforcement officials that don't seem to care about federal regs. You guys are lucky the Mexican states don't also try to tax and regulate your boats when they are kept long term in Mexico.

Yes this is a rant. Sounds like Zeehag is on the money. Pay careful attention to Mexican laws and there is no problem. And thank your lucky stars you are not trying to cruise the US in a Mexican flagged vessel.

[rebel heart]

Originally Posted by zeehag

the mexifeds get their info from the marina.yes. they even use computerized information gathering.
they also read stuff folks publish online..in cruising forums and in facebook and other places folks like to rat selves out in public. you would be surprised how many folks do that.

Yeah if there's one thing Mexico has dialed in, it's law enforcement. lol

[Celestialsailor]

Originally Posted by SV THIRD DAY

Ha ha ha ...

Adventures of Joli' Elle

I guess you missed the link to your Blog at the bottom of your signature line......being Anonymous on the internet is harder than you think. Just from your blog I can get your boat name and registered owners of the boat and the home address the USCG has on file for your Documentation and that doesn't even count what the folks at the NSA can do

Nov 16th:
"We now have 8 pounds of Tuna in the freezer."
Sure hope a Mexican Fishing license for all crew members was recorded as being purchased prior to catching all that Tuna.....see what I mean.

I'm not picking on you Amigo, just trying to make the point about the false Anonymity that is the internet these days. I’ve posted my entire live on our Cruising Blog and it has helped introduce us to many great people…but I also received a visit from the Mexican Navy while anchored in San Blas, Nayarit (complete with machine guns and face masks) over something I posted on my blog!

On another occasion I received an email from an insector at the FCC (yes the FCC in Washington DC) about a complaint that had been filed against me in Mexico. Seems a crazy man named Norm Goldie in San Blas had forwarded them my blog link along with complaints that I was "destroying the town of San Blas by interferring with official Port duty using my VHF radio". The fire was easily put out...but again...things I posted on a blog were being used against me and I had to explain them. This is why when I see people saying they would just slip out in the dead of night and break Mexican Law and they are very identifiable in the Mexican Cruiser Community, it makes be very nervous from personal experience and I would caution people to use a little self editing because you NEVER know what can be used against you these day in the land of Cyberspace.

Oh and ha ha to you also since there is no last name and the one on my email is an alias. I have nothing to hide anyways. I was questioning the logic of "them" watching "us". Like they really have time for such silly games.

[NoTies]

It constantly amazes me that "some" cruisers from developed countries (with all their bureaucratic requirements and taxes) bitch and moan about a developing nation's right to sovereignty and to enforce their own laws. You are guests, get up to speed.

[markpierce]

If in doubt, stay home.