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Dave852 · 21-01-2014, 04:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by beiland

Looks as though you were fortunate that your rudders were jammed in a relatively straight ahead configuration,...unlike those of the alpha cat in this discussion.

Yes we were fortunate that they were only about 10 degrees off center ( both of them). And yes it was unlike the Alfa cat in that they could turn to starboard under sail or port under power as per Charles's report with their one jammed rudder that we have no info as to how far off center it was jammed. In my case full reverse and full forward on the other was not enough to prevent us from going on a port circle. Now if you want to point out how my situation is different go ahead, like water temperature, wave action, we had both motors available etc... But the post was really in response to the previous interest in how drogues are used and the possibility of using other methods such as buckets etc...

roland stockham · 21-01-2014, 04:39

Her is a though or two;
There is no such thing as a 'bad' boat (well almost, ive seen a few homebuild steel and cement jobs...)
All boats are build to excel in some areas but not in others, an open 60' does not make a good family cruiser!
If you build a boat to be exellent in the bahama sholes how good will it be in a high latitude northerly gale?
So - there is no reason not to make lovely cool spacious cats for tropical cruising but if the yard is not in the Caribbean how do you get the finished boat to it's cruising destination (yes I know you get a diluivery crew to risk all for little pay on a boat not equipped or suitable for ocean passages)
It is January, she was a long way out in some bad weather. Should we be asking a few more serching questions about what are boats are designed for, not to be critical but to ensure we stick to what they do best.
The European watercraft directive was a disaster (my opinion) because nobody would ecept the limitations. Istead of being a guide to what the boat would excel at it became a test - all 'good' boats had to be 'A' rated (open ocean sailing) which is like saying a ferry should be good as an icebreaker.
Just a though, don't know the boat and havent seen a full situation analysis but it sounds like the boat got hit by a heavy sea, nocked sideways and bent both rudders. Typical damage to be expected with a coastal boat in big seas.

Dave852 · 21-01-2014, 05:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by roland stockham

Just a though, don't know the boat and havent seen a full situation analysis but it sounds like the boat got hit by a heavy sea, nocked sideways and bent both rudders. Typical damage to be expected with a coastal boat in big seas.

One bent and one spinning like a weather vane per the current account. That's the problem when the thread gets to long:-)

goboatingnow · 21-01-2014, 05:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by roland stockham

The European watercraft directive was a disaster (my opinion) because nobody would ecept the limitations. Istead of being a guide to what the boat would excel at it became a test - all 'good' boats had to be 'A' rated (open ocean sailing) which is like saying a ferry should be good as an icebreaker.
Just a though, don't know the boat and havent seen a full situation analysis but it sounds like the boat got hit by a heavy sea, nocked sideways and bent both rudders. Typical damage to be expected with a coastal boat in big seas.

I think you demonstrate the common misconceptions around the Recreational Craft Directive and particulary Category A. ( the Alpha wasn't build under the RCD anyway )

The primarily requirement under the RCD for all categories above D , is that the manufacturer has a documented quality system. A bit like ISO 9000 this really doesn't guarantee that you aren't building crap, just that its documented crap.

When the RCD was introduced , there were little or no actual construction standards so the RCD actually only mandates the boat meet a series of vague requirements. reference is made that confirming to relevant ISO is a way of demonstrating compliance , but you can demonstrate compliance in any number of other ways that the notifying body agrees to.

Also ISO is an emerging set of standards , that do not cover all areas of boat construction and in places where it does , there are ongoing changes. Hence the RCD does not tie down all areas of the boats construction

Hence the purpose of the RCD was clearly to agree a common " minimum " standard not to set best practice, setting a legal best practice would have forced costs onto smaller companies without consideration of the ability to pay. ABYC can set best practice because its not a mandatory legal system.

Hence a good quality cat A boat can be very different to a poor quality Cat A , this was always the case , ie caveat emptor. Simply saying this Cat A boat is the same as that Cat A boat is to misunderstand the RCD.

Note that the CAT A requirements do NOT equate to a particular sea area of operation , even though they are widely mis interpreted to do so.

Dave

goboatingnow · 21-01-2014, 05:15

By the way , it amuses me the critics of abandoning the boat , given what happened , I suspect very few if any people could have done anything different.

And no, delivery skippers are not superhuman, not mercenaries whose lives are of less value cause there're being paid.

Dave

DoubleWhisky · 22-01-2014, 14:45

The thread drifted and sunk

SAR mission not expected

EzzyD · 22-01-2014, 15:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by yeloya

My last word on this thread that turned out to be the seamanship and technical knowledge show..
The crew did a good job, but given their experience one would expect a bit more than that. Lying ahull is not a good idea on a cat, if the waves exceed yr beam length you are at serious risk of be flipped over, particularly on a cat with fixed keel.. Para anchor has similar risks and I wouldn't try this option with this unproven cat.(do you believe that the cleats are any stronger than the rudders ??)
Drogue could have been tried but there is no reference. Maybe they didn't have it..

I was never scared of wind , a bit more from sea state but dead scared in some cases that the boat would not hold up. If I was the skipper and seing the boat falling apart (both engines not working, if working not charging !!!, both rudders fouled, taking water without even knowing where from, genset not working, battens are out of main sail, etc) and the worse of weather is still to come, I would definately do what they did.

It's sad for Mr Tarjan, but selling or sailing cats is different than making catamarans.

Cheers

Yeloya

The boat is definately not built up to these condition.

Just a curiosity, what is the equivalent of CE certificate for europenan boats in the US ? Can anybody make his boat and set sail offshore there ??

In the US you can build your own boat, and go sailing offshore. Google 'Flyin Hawaiian' is a prime example. Unfortunately it is not the only one.

beiland · 27-01-2014, 20:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hoofsmit

Attachment 74270[ATTACH]74271

Bend or break ! You choose ? This was 70mm on a 43ft mono

Where did you source those photos? And any more details about the failure?
Brian

Southern Star · 28-01-2014, 13:29

I've been away for a bit, but glad to see that many of the final posts on this thread:

1. Support skipper Hank Schmitt, including one former client who had him bring their boat back successfully after a rudder failure offshore.
2. Make clear that dropping the rudder would likely be impossible if the stock was bent and seized in the bearing (and lets face it, we don't know if their stated efforts at repairing the steering did not include an analysis of this).
3. Suggest that steering with buckets, or drogues with one rudder bent and locked at a severe angle would be difficult, if not impossible for 300 miles on a direct course (especially with a forecast for worsening conditions).
4. Allow that delivery skippers are not gods and must consider the lives and safety of the owners and crew (and their imput) before making any decision regarding abandonment; indeed, acknowledging that with the owners on board, their decision on that issue would carry the day.
5. Confirm that numerous other production cats have equivalent rudder stocks and likely would also have suffered damage if forced backwards in heavy seas.

The simple fact is (as some tried to suggest at the outset), none of us were there. None of us know whether the rudders on other cats would have survived the forces in question. None of us know what efforts were made to repair the steering (although we do know that efforts were made in this regard) or whether any of our suggested plans of action would have worked.

Brad

yeloya · 28-01-2014, 13:32

Does anybody know where the boat has ended ? and in what shape ??

Yeloya

DoubleWhisky · 28-01-2014, 13:37

WOW ! ! !

Roma locuta, causa finita....

**Cotemar** · 28-01-2014, 13:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by yeloya

Does anybody know where the boat has ended ? and in what shape ??

Yeloya

No sign of her yet. "Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" is presumed to be drifting with prevailing wind and Gulf Stream current going north. Projections would put her getting close to Nantucket