Hanse 418 or Jeanneau 410?

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Barra

Hey polux

I know cats more than monos and the best cats are usually monolithic bottoms with composite sides. The budget cats are usually the ones fully composite.

Mainly for grounding strength.

I'll have to check out what you say about monos being fully composite lately. Does seem surprising.

So what does this contra moule construction mean exactly? Do you mean dropping a complete internal layout into a hull and gluing it in? Yeah that would be problematic access wise....

Contre moule is exactly what you say. It is the cheapest way of doing a boat struture and is used by all French big manufacturers.


I am not sayng it does not work, obviously it does its work but all is glued and you don't have acess to see if everything is alright or not. That can be a problem after a grounding because t is very dificult to acess damage and even more repairing it.

On the Hanse you have a grid but at least you can see the damage, if any after a grounding and it will be easier to repair.


Regarding cored hulls it s the same thing with cats. They are all cored, at least on the sides to be lighter and stronger. Most expensive catamarans are fully cored.


Note that I have already said that thing that the Jeanneau is a better boat for charter, it is faster, nicer, better designed and it will have more demand than the 418 and a charter boat is to sell after 10 years or use or so and the Jeanneau should not have a problem.


Sayng all this would say that the Hanse or the Bavaria have a slightly better built in what regards hull and structure.

[Barra]

Originally Posted by Polux

Contre moule is exactly what you say. It is the cheapest way of doing a boat struture and is used by all French big manufacturers.


I am not sayng it does not work, obviously it does its work but all is glued and you don't have acess to see if everything is alright or not. That can be a problem after a grounding because t is very dificult to acess damage and even more repairing it.

On the Hanse you have a grid but at least you can see the damage, if any after a grounding and it will be easier to repair.


Regarding cored hulls it s the same thing with cats. They are all cored, at least on the sides to be lighter and stronger. Most expensive catamarans are fully cored.


Note that I have already said that thing that the Jeanneau is a better boat for charter, it is faster, nicer, better designed and it will have more demand than the 418 and a charter boat is to sell after 10 years or use or so and the Jeanneau should not have a problem.


Sayng all this would say that the Hanse or the Bavaria have a slightly better built in what regards hull and structure.

Thanks polux.

Looks like the jeanneaus over 40 feet at least have a good way to deal with the glued in mould also with the grid all hand glassed to the hull and each section cut out for inspection or repair. Very similar to the hanse by the looks. ( except the hanse has a composite bottom which in a grounding is inferior don't you agree?)

Anyway both boats have gone down in their attractiveness to me as they both have modern pc board electrical panels. Just one look at the jeanneau owners forum and you get very concerned with the reliability of their shieber panels ( originally for motor homes) - years of problems with local dealers unable to fix despite repeated full replacements, including stepping a mast and rewiring it in one case ( didn't fix it). Guys are pulling them out which in a completed boat is a huge job.

Are their any modern production boats that don't use pc board's these days? Been there. Faulty control panels thst cant be fixed really destroy quality of life on board. Never again.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Barra

Thanks polux.

Looks like the jeanneaus over 40 feet at least have a good way to deal with the glued in mould also with the grid all hand glassed to the hull and each section cut out for inspection or repair. Very similar to the hanse by the looks. ( except the hanse has a composite bottom which in a grounding is inferior don't you agree?)
..

I don't know if that is the case with bigger units but I doubt. The concept of contre moule is a complete mold of the bottom of the hull, there are no inspection holes it is a full structure without openings and no, it s not similar to the systems used by Bavaria or Hanse that are not contre moules but grids.

Regarding groundings and hull maybe that is a concern for multihulls even if top ones use hulls carbon cored hulls but in what regards monohulls when you have a grounding is to the keel that you should be concerned and with the inspection of the boat structure and a possible repair.

In monohulls the concern is more about hitting floating objects and on the areas where that will happen normally cored hulls are protected by kevlar (Bavaria) or have those areas reinforced or in monolithic.

Anyway the point is that due to have cored hulls the Hanse should be lighter than the Jeanneau and it is the opposite by a large margin. One wonders if the Hanse is not built in a stronger way.

[Barra]

Originally Posted by Polux

I don't know if that is the case with bigger units but I doubt. The concept of contre moule is a complete mold of the bottom of the hull, there are no inspection holes it is a full structure without openings and no, it s not similar to the systems used by Bavaria or Hanse that are not contre moules but grids.

Regarding groundings and hull maybe that is a concern for multihulls even if top ones use hulls carbon cored hulls but in what regards monohulls when you have a grounding is to the keel that you should be concerned and with the inspection of the boat structure and a possible repair.

In monohulls the concern is more about hitting floating objects and on the areas where that will happen normally cored hulls are protected by kevlar (Bavaria) or have those areas reinforced or in monolithic.

Anyway the point is that due to have cored hulls the Hanse should be lighter than the Jeanneau and it is the opposite by a large margin. One wonders if the Hanse is not built in a stronger way.

I think you might need to reevaluate jeanneau's then polux .....

From Jenneau-

"The Structural Grid…
Jeanneau Structural Grid - Comparing JeanneausJeanneau’s structural grid starts with a similar idea to the Beneteau. In the old days, the grid was made out of individual components. Now, a molded “Structural grid” is used. That is, there is a mold made that incorporates a system of designed in girders and itincorporates components that locates key structural and furniture components—all of this adds to the stiffening of the hull.

But Jeanneau Goes Two Steps Further.
The girder system designed into the liner, is created with dedicated special purpose fiberglass clothes to greatly enhance the stiffness of the structure and strength of the girder to resist bending and torsion.

Unlike the pan liner approach which is simply glued in with a hit or miss approach, the structural grid has the sections between the girders cut out, so the girder sections are glassed directly to the hull. This greatly improves the overall strength of the hull and eliminates the wracking and bending moments seen when there is only a pan liner. Years later, there will be no movement so windows won’t leak, bulkheads won’t move around and the boat will not creak and groan when encountering rougher conditions. Overall, this approach is stronger, and safer. You could get by with less—but why would you want to?"


Not sure they go to the same lengths in their smaller boats where you may be more on the money.


Also seems the weight reduction is due to extensive use of resin infusion which i believe hanse is not using in their general production. They claim 30% weight reduction which would explain most of the weight difference to the hanse pretty much once you add back some weight for the solid hull bottom on the jenneau.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Barra

I think you might need to reevaluate jeanneau's then polux .....

I regret already to have posted here and if I continue on this last post is just not to mislead other members.

Originally Posted by Barra

From Jenneau-

"The Structural Grid…
Jeanneau Structural Grid - Comparing JeanneausJeanneau’s structural grid starts with a similar idea to the Beneteau. In the old days, the grid was made out of individual components. Now, a molded “Structural grid” is used. That is, there is a mold made that incorporates a system of designed in girders and itincorporates components that locates key structural and furniture components—all of this adds to the stiffening of the hull.

But Jeanneau Goes Two Steps Further.
The girder system designed into the liner, is created with dedicated special purpose fiberglass clothes to greatly enhance the stiffness of the structure and strength of the girder to resist bending and torsion.

Unlike the pan liner approach which is simply glued in with a hit or miss approach, the structural grid has the sections between the girders cut out, so the girder sections are glassed directly to the hull. This greatly improves the overall strength of the hull and eliminates the wracking and bending moments seen when there is only a pan liner. Years later, there will be no movement so windows won’t leak, bulkheads won’t move around and the boat will not creak and groan when encountering rougher conditions. Overall, this approach is stronger, and safer. You could get by with less—but why would you want to?"


Not sure they go to the same lengths in their smaller boats where you may be more on the money.

So, it is me that needs to evaluate Jeanneau? Do you know how many years ago they wrote that? Look at the hull that is associated with that information and you will have an idea :

https://www.atlantic-cruising.com/co...aus-to-others/

Yes, at that time Jeanneaus were better built than Beneteau. Not anymore, they are built basically the same way, at least in what regards hull and structure. This is a more modern Jeanneau, can you see any openings on the contre-moule? Look at the structure on the image above, the one to whom refers your text about jeanneau and look at the differences with a more modern hull, below:


And the structure glassed to the hull? As you can see there is no way that can be done on the more modern boats and it isn't. The contre moule is glued to the hull.

Originally Posted by Barra

I think you might need to reevaluate jeanneau's then polux .....
Also seems the weight reduction is due to extensive use of resin infusion which i believe hanse is not using in their general production. They claim 30% weight reduction which would explain most of the weight difference to the hanse pretty much once you add back some weight for the solid hull bottom on the jeanneau.

It is quite the contrary, the Hanse uses infusion on the hull and the deck, Jeanneau only on the deck and while the Jeanneau uses a heavier monolithic hull, Hanse uses a cored lighter hull.

"Hanse lays up its hulls and decks with an exterior coating of gelcoat, followed by a layer of vinylester resin to prevent blistering. From there, a balsa core is surrounded by fiberglass and infused with polyester resin. The hull and deck are bonded with adhesive and through-bolted at each stanchion. "

Anyway I maintain the opinion that for charter (that is what you want to do with the boat) the Jeanneau 410 is a better option: faster, more beautiful and with more attractiveness to charter sailors . If I was charting a boat I would chose the jeanneau 410 over the Hanse 418 and it seems to me that is what it should matter to you.

It is hard to explain how a boat that uses less sophisticated building techniques and techniques that should make it heavier turns out to be a lot lighter. It can only be explained by a lighter building, meaning a less strong boat.

[Barra]

Originally Posted by Polux

I regret already to have posted here and if I continue on this last post is just not to mislead other members.


So, it is me that needs to evaluate Jeanneau? Do you know how many years ago they wrote that? Look at the hull that is associated with that information and you will have an idea :

https://www.atlantic-cruising.com/co...aus-to-others/

Yes, at that time Jeanneaus were better built than Beneteau. Not anymore, they are built basically the same way, at least in what regards hull and structure. This is a more modern Jeanneau, can you see any openings on the contre-moule? Look at the structure on the image above, the one to whom refers your text about jeanneau and look at the differences with a more modern hull, below:


And the structure glassed to the hull? As you can see there is no way that can be done on the more modern boats and it isn't. The contre moule is glued to the hull.



It is quite the contrary, the Hanse uses infusion on the hull and the deck, Jeanneau only on the deck and while the Jeanneau uses a heavier monolithic hull, Hanse uses a cored lighter hull.

"Hanse lays up its hulls and decks with an exterior coating of gelcoat, followed by a layer of vinylester resin to prevent blistering. From there, a balsa core is surrounded by fiberglass and infused with polyester resin. The hull and deck are bonded with adhesive and through-bolted at each stanchion. "

Anyway I maintain the opinion that for charter (that is what you want to do with the boat) the Jeanneau 410 is a better option: faster, more beautiful and with more attractiveness to charter sailors . If I was charting a boat I would chose the jeanneau 410 over the Hanse 418 and it seems to me that is what it should matter to you.

It is hard to explain how a boat that uses less sophisticated building techniques and techniques that should make it heavier turns out to be a lot lighter. It can only be explained by a lighter building, meaning a less strong boat.

Well your a touchy bugger still it seems polux. Nothing much has changed. I'm just after info to make a decision and I had to get you to elaborate as if you look back your generalistic comments needed more clarity.

So summing up the jeanneau even in 40 foot plus uses a glued in hull these days. Best I can tell that changed some time after 2015 since that's when that info was posted.

I agree that type of construction is a complete no go for me then. Yes it's for charter but charter to then own as I have time to sail up to 6 weeks a year but no longer. I would refit whichever boat I get after 5 years for personal use so the boat quality and longevity matters not just it's income.

Frankly I find it amazing a boat of this design quality could have been so poorly built. Such a shame.

[Polux]

I believe that information, even if posted in 2015 is much older. You have only to look at the hull design to see that.

Note that all French main brands -Dufour, Jeanneau and Beneteau use the same technique that is not necessarily bad unless the boat is grounded or old, due to dificulties in inspection and repair.

If you want to know more about repair of contre moules you can find information on the web at least on two blogs.

Note also that Bavaria and Hanse make also extensive use of glues and if I am not mistaken only the main bulhkheads are also laminated. Besides this the real difference is an easier way to inspect and repair the boat structure in case of a grounding...or just in case.

If you want something that is better built go for the Azuree 41, Dehler 42, Maxi 1200, all slightly more expensive or for about the same price the More 40. You can also look at the Elan even id their cruising main designs are old designs or the Salona 380 but I don't know if they are already out of trouble. The More charter site is not working too, so II don't know if they are in trouble. The ones that follow my blog that want a new boat of that size have opted for the Azuree 41, after having researched the market.

The truth is that the French boats with that contre moule structure and all bonded are made to a price that is very hard to match, but off course, they are made to last for a time and very hard to repair, but you may get lucky and during the charter service the boat is never grounded.

[robertoddhoven]

Thanks for all the good information on this boat. The Hanse 418 keeps bubbling to the top of my list and this info helps.

[Nyodyssey410]

Hi Guys

We were at the Annapolis show last October and ordered a new 410 which we hope to get in July

We went with the following:

Furling Main
Self tacking jib
Code 0
AC
Generator
Bow thruster
Shoal Keel
45hp Yanmar
3 electric winches
Ocean package
Grey Cedar
Dark oak floors

Will let you know our thoughts when it finally arrives. It’s been a long wait so far

[Zzmeyer]

Exactly how I'd have done it. I had a Jeanneau 42ds and loved it. I love the side decks of the 410. The problem with my 42 was getting in and out of the cockpit. On my Sense 50 I went with an asymmetrical, genoa and staysail and wish I'd gone with the code 0 and the self tacking jib. While the asymmetrical is more effective it tends to stay in its bag. The staysail makes tacking up the bay a bitch with the genoa.

[pcav]

Beautiful boat, good choice, I'm happy for you. Take care of the maintenance, and be prepared to a number of minor issues to fix in the firts few years of boat life.
Happy sailing!

[Nyodyssey410]

Thanks

This is our first new boat and only second sailboat. Any advice on what we can expect or look for as far as warranty issues?

Should we not stray too far for the remainder of the season?

We are excited and nervous at the same time. We are coming from a Beneteau 331 so this is a big jump for us

[pcav]

You may be lucky, but it is statistically likely that you'll have issues for the first two years. Make sure you have clear arrangements with the deler in order to know what to do in case of trouble. You may be asked to return the boat to the base, so yes, not wandering too far away is IMHO a good idea.

[Nyodyssey410]

Thanks

We are sailing out of Huntington and Stamford. We would like to do a short "shakedown cruise" to Block Island for a week and enjoy staying aboard longer than a weekend before the season ends but that is about as far as we intend to go this season

It's a tad over 100nm to get there

too ambitious or far?

[pcav]

I think it is reasonable, but be prepared for issues. I'm here managing a larger Jeanneau, and after oone year we still have problems (latest is the transom electrical engine who stopped working abruptly)