Family of 6 circumnavigaton

[PortClydeMe]

Originally Posted by Sea Frog

It constantly amazes me how people think that "cruising with children" equals to robbing them from social contacts and "land life". For some weird reason people think that cruising equals to non-stop sailing in the open oceans, for years, without any contacts with land.

As for "being with parents" vs. "being with friends", I would suggest reading "Hold On to Your Kids", by Dr. Neufeld and Dr. Maté.

The title of this thread includes the word "circumnavigation". Thus, some extended periods beyond the sight of land. Having personally spent time at sea in my youth, and being a parent myself of a son who is now 24 years old, I wouldn't take children ages 2 and 8 months on a self-piloted trans-ocean cruise. It's a long way from help when "stuff" hits the fan.

Then there's puberty. Shortly before, and always after, I couldn't wait to be free from the parents and out and about with my friends. The long and boring Sunday drives in the countryside were torture. My folks called it "cruising around". I called it "captive hell".

[chall]

I don't believe the OP asked for parenting advice or permission from CF to go cruising. It seemed more like he was seeking vessel selection advice.

There are some fantastic cruising families who are sailing around the world that would be happy to give you a real understanding of the challenges and experiences of cruising as a family and answer any questions you may have.

I do know that the free giving of unsolicited, ignorant advice is the nature of internet forums, but it saddens me none the less.

[chall]

Originally Posted by PortClydeMe

I wouldn't take children ages 2 and 8 months on a self-piloted trans-ocean cruise. It's a long way from help when "stuff" hits the fan.

I think you'll find that he isn't intending on leaving for at least 2-3 years. Given he is still looking for a boat the real timeline may be longer than that.

Several families participate in the ARC every year, many more cruising around the oceans of the world.

I have no issue with my kids being bored. Kids these days don't spend enough time bored.

[PortClydeMe]

Originally Posted by chall

I don't believe the OP asked for parenting advice or permission from CF to go cruising. It seemed more like he was seeking vessel selection advice.

There are some fantastic cruising families who are sailing around the world that would be happy to give you a real understanding of the challenges and experiences of cruising as a family and answer any questions you may have.

I do know that the free giving of unsolicited, ignorant advice is the nature of internet forums, but it saddens me none the less.

Parenting advice? No, yet some cogent points have been raised that beg sober consideration. The Rebel Heart incident quickly comes to mind. Moreover, I find this topic fascinating, and wonder how I'd react if one day close to puberty my folks say "Pack your stuff, we're gonna go live on a small boat." When a poster states that he'll be taking four children to sea, two of them very young, it's not unexpected for people on an Internet sailing forum to comment on that idea, whether they themselves have personally raised children at sea, or not. Again, it's a planned circumnavigation, so there are many angles to think about beyond world experiences as youth.

[JPA Cate]

PtClydeMe had in mind the Rebel Heart incident, and so did I when I asked the somewhat confrontational question about who was going to be doing what. In that case, the youngest child became ill, and there were serious problems with the boat's construction that the owner had not completely understood. There were just the two parents to do everything, and, with the illness, it led to loss of the vessel, though the people were all saved.

The example I gave relates to a couple with a fair wee bit of sailing experience whose decision for the child care and schooling aspect was to hire a nanny for one leg of their voyage. They did it partially because they sail well as a team on passages, and had that experience already. It frees up one crew member to always be the one on watch, which one needs for passage making (which is involved in the circumnavigation concept). It is a reasonable question, although I agree with the implications of Northern Sea Wolf's post, that it would be prohibitively expensive for most young couples. It is a problem that needs a solution.

One possible solution would be to do this in two steps, where the two older children are turned into viable daytime crew, learn the Colregs, understand watchkeeping, etc. We don't know the level of competence here for the parents so are unable to assess how easy it would be for them to teach them what they need to know. The two steps being a starter boat to learn things on and do some overnights and some coastal cruising, then later on a larger boat. They can all learn together, but when you get to the longer ocean crossings, there's going to be a lot of housekeeping for a family of six, no matter how you slice it, and somebody's going to have to look after the (by then) 3 and 5 yr. olds. You can't do that, clean house, cook, AND stand watches, too, you'll have to let something slide. Frankly, it sounds like a life of drudgery for the woman [sort of all work, and none of the fun of the actual sailing], at least until they answer the questions.

Still, their lives, their choices.

I wish them well with it. I just think it is not going to be easy.... If you think i'm being too harsh, so be it. My input is based on more years cruising than some of the CF members have been alive.

Ann

[chall]

Originally Posted by PortClydeMe

Parenting advice? No, yet some cogent points have been raised that beg sober consideration.

Parenting is pretty much just 20 years+ of sober consideration isn't it whether you do it on land or in a boat? We intend on doing something very similar to the OP. Trust me plenty of time is being spent soberly considering and mitigating the risks.

Originally Posted by PortClydeMe

The Rebel Heart incident.......

Can't we have this discussion without getting Rebel Hearted ?

Lessons to be learned from RH? Absolutely. Emphatic proof why only retirees in really big boats should be cruising around the world? No.

Originally Posted by PortClydeMe

it's not unexpected for people on an Internet sailing forum to comment.....whether they themselves have personally raised children at sea, or not. .

I know

Originally Posted by PortClydeMe

Again, it's a planned circumnavigation, so there are many angles to think about beyond world experiences as youth.

Absolutely. It is a massive undertaking. There are real risks involved. There is a lot of prep to be done, a lot of angles to consider.

[chall]

Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate

PtClydeMe had in mind the Rebel Heart incident, and so did I when I asked the somewhat confrontational question about who was going to be doing what. In that case, the youngest child became ill, and there were serious problems with the boat's construction that the owner had not completely understood. There were just the two parents to do everything, and, with the illness, it led to loss of the vessel, though the people were all saved.

Sorry, perhaps because of RH I am being a little defensive of those who still have the courage to actually mention on an internet forum that they want to go cruising with their family.

I found it sad that we didn't get two pages into a thread about vessel suitability before someone had accused the OP of being selfish and jeopardizing their children's future.

I do absolutely agree with you that having help on passage, whether it be sailing, kid minding, paid or unpaid is a very very good idea. We absolutely intend on doing this.

Thanks Ann as always for your advice. From those of us still at the steep part of the learning curve it is much appreciated.

[Belaurora]

Whoa lots of good advice and help. I appreciate it.

Ann: thanks for the thoughts. I was one of 4 and was homeschooled. I’m pretty sure we can handle the schooling. The idea of an au pair is interesting though. The problem is it would require an extra berth or cabin, storage, and in general probably more waterline. Ultimately more cost. I would guess that there are some young ladies in the world who would jump at the chance to do such a thing even if only for a short time.
Just a note, my wife is VERY enthusiastic about this. Maybe even more so than I am.

Jackdale, thanks I’ve heard of both those folks sailing S/V Bagheera I believe. I will dig in more on what they have to say.
Don: I too like the lines of the Bene 47.7 and it does have the accommodations we need. It looks a bit short on diesel tankage though on some models, 62 gal tank vs 142 on the cruiser version. Still it appears to be a good choice. My wife likes the cats more BUT she would rather go even if a monohull fits our budget better.

Chall.
It’s funny, going from 2 to 4 changes some things a lot and others almost nothing. The most dramatic changes are the size of cars, daycare costs, and accommodations. Ann mentioned a nanny. It’s an interesting thought. There are folks out there who pay and/or work on a boat in exchange for passage. Not sure if anyone would do an au pair job completely in exchange for passage but a small stipend might get you a fulltime sitter, extra hand etc. Alas, I think any boat I want to afford is probably going to be too small for a nanny But it’s a thought for the extra hands.
The Amel’s really were designed for shorthanded sailing by a couple so yes I agree the smaller ones are not as well set up on accommodations. I know the 53’ Super Maramu would work very well though. See S/V Delos and its crew. I’m looking for a 46’ Maramu locally to see if it will work.
Dang not many moody 471’s on Yachtworld right now…HR’s have a great reputation. I’ll look for a 45. Thanks for the suggestions.
I am willing to buy a boat from any country. However, it would be nice to get on a lot of them before we pull the trigger. We have been on 8 cats so far, 6 >40 ft, and ruled most of them out due to the size. Of the ones we looked at the Lagoon 440 and the Lavezzi 40 will work. We looked at a Lagoon 380 and the Lavezzi 40 right next to it and it was clear the Lavezzi was just very well laid out and seemed much bigger. The 440 was way overpriced and out of shape for the price so it really turned us off. Saw a brand new Nautitech Open 40…OMG YES please! Also saw new Lagoon 450 and 500… nice but I don’t like the Fly bridge…looks too high to be reefing in even slightly bad weather.
Cats are our preference.
Good luck to you too!

Budawang,
I’ve seen that vid and several others, thanks. I made sure to show my wife what storms are like to see if I could dissuade her with it. Nope, still enthusiastic!
I do realize that getting into higher latitudes may not be ideal on a cat. A modification of sailing routes and timing would be required.
The one thing I wonder about on the Lavezzi is the load carrying ability. Cruising with 6 mouths to feed means more food, and in general more “stuff”. Thankfully water makers exist now. We will have to be far more careful in loading a Lavezzi. The Venezia and Belize have a better load capacity and we could probably find one at a price we could afford. The Lavezzi just seems to be a great value as you said. Could you give me some reason why it might NOT work for us?

Northernseawolf
Awesome! What size was the boat?

Seafrog,
Thank you. We have similar views.

Ann,
Again thank you for the advice. The one thing we have thought long about is how the watches and child care would work n passages. Fortunately we have 2 older children. The oldest is a girl and very helpful so that eases the load. The next oldest is a sturdy little boy and by the time we leave he will be helpful for some of the on deck tasks. Our two youngest will still need plenty of attention. We are well aware it won’t be easy during passages especially longer ones. Of course short legs in the beginning will be less tiring. Others have done it with less or more kids, so why not us?

Questions:
Why would the Lavezzi NOT work for us? Anyone with experience with 5+ on bord?
Beneteau 47.7, anyone with experience with this boat with 5+ on board?

Any other boat recommendations?
BTW heading to Annapolis Fall boat show for a couple days (we live 45 mins away). Want to have some models to go look at so we can maximize our time.

[Paul Annapolis]

Clearly you are considering this more diligently and more intelligently than many other OP's here on CF who come out of left field with very basic and broad, rudimentary questions that suggest a low knowledge threshold. Yes--as Thoreau said, build your castles in the air and then build foundations down to the ground. So good for you! But there are intermediate steps and since you seem to be carefully considering options, I would suggest that before you even enter the Annapolis show gates that you do a lot of research to make your day there worthwhile. Go for it!

[chall]

Originally Posted by Belaurora

Chall.
It’s funny, going from 2 to 4 changes some things a lot and others almost nothing. The most dramatic changes are the size of cars, daycare costs, and accommodations. Ann mentioned a nanny. It’s an interesting thought. There are folks out there who pay and/or work on a boat in exchange for passage. Not sure if anyone would do an au pair job completely in exchange for passage but a small stipend might get you a fulltime sitter, extra hand etc. Alas, I think any boat I want to afford is probably going to be too small for a nanny But it’s a thought for the extra hands.

Rather than a Nanny necessarily, I would look at just taking on volunteer 'kid friendly' crew.

The last multiple night passage we did we borrowed my sister in law who is a newly graduated teacher who also enjoys sailing. Another time we had a backpacker onboard( 20 year old french guy) for a few days who in exchange for the passage and experience was happy to help with watches and was fantastic with the kids as well.

Our plan for our first ocean crossing is to intentionally seek out a doctor/nurse as additional crew. I am not that concerned about them having sailing experience.

Best laid plans of course ......but we will see

[Udacha]

Originally Posted by jackdale

Read everything by Liza Copeland.

LIZA & ANDY COPELAND: World travellers, Cruising Authors and Speakers

They did a six year circumnavigation with their three sons on a Beneteau 38.

Fiona McCall and Paul Howard also did a six year circumnavigation on a 28 foot jink rigged boat with 2 children.

All in the Same Boat: Fiona McCall, Paul Howard: 9780771054372: Books - Amazon.ca

Agreed,

Liza also has a video of their trip. I would also recommend reading, after I did, I emailed her with some questions and she called me back and we spoke on the phone. I needed info about the boat I have been interested in and if I had enough monthly income for extended cruising, she was extremely helpful

[JPA Cate]

Just to be clear about my basic position on taking kids cruising. I think such kids come out just fine, are not damaged in any way by being brought up and taught and living on a boat. Know a number of adults with kids now, who grew up on boats. I am in favor of cruising kids--they're really wonderful. One exception, but the parents were not "into" correcting them, and they behaved poorly. But only one family of many whom we've met.

My questions are of issues I think one needs to address with that many people on a boat.....only my opinion.

Now, y'all can help them select a boat, frankly, I do not think catamarans are well suited to very cold climates with large, rough, seas, and again, others' mmv.

Cheers,

Ann

[Belaurora]

Paul,
Yes I like to have ALL my ducks in a row. Professionally i'm an analyst. I make a living distilling information. You should see my spread sheets for this trip.

Chall, yeah I agree especially for the longer passages. Unfortunately, I will probably run up against the hard constraint of # of berths in a monohull. Hopefully not though. A cat would be ideal for many reasons.

Udacha,
Wow that's awesome. I will reach out to Liza.

The reason I posted was to see if there was another family with 4 kids who could weigh in. The age/ gender arrangement of my kids presents something of a challenge, at least on a monohull. Looking at layouts only tells me if there are enough berths, not whether the spaces flow well enough to house a family. A small space can be fine if it's well thought out and flows well. Conversely a larger boat may be poorly laid out for a family to live on.

Does anyone have input on the loaded capacity of 38-40' cats. I have the actual numbers but I'm sort of at a loss on the practical side of it. I think the Lavezzi load capacity is around 5,500 lbs... After 750 lbs of people, 469 lbs of fuel and 1,235 lbs of fuel = 2454lbs. That's 3,000 lbs left. Add in anchors, rode , and dinghy with outboard well that's probably another 1000lbs so down to 2,000. Plus food and spares etc.. seems like I could easily overload.

Justin

[Belaurora]

Now, y'all can help them select a boat, frankly, I do not think catamarans are well suited to very cold climates with large, rough, seas, and again, others' mmv.

Cheers,

Ann[/QUOTE]

Ann, Yes that was one of my questions. Obviously boat insurance may not cover certain latitudes on a mono or a cat. The plan was only to venture to places like Ireland, NZ, Norway, Sweden, Greenland, maybe Iceland, and it's always been a desire to see Tiera Del Fuego. Naturally I'm only interested in going to each of those places during the summer. I am positive an aluminum or steel hulled mono with watertight bulkheads is a better vessel for plying those waters. I would rather go, see, and get back to friendlier waters before the really nasty weather sets in. Could some of those places be visited in a 40' cat relatively safely? Please understand I know those waters are quite different than equatorial waters and thus are less safe generally.

Any cats go around Cape horn? BTW a FP Salina 48 sailed the NW passage with a family on board...Hmmm seems they've done Cape Horn and Antarctica too!! LOL no heater on the boat either! I'm not interested in that. Seems the Salina handled it just fine though.

[weavis]

Well. The Titanic sank, and it was a monohull.

Its real simple regarding decisions. All you have to do is make them. Once made, do your homework, prepare well and then follow what you have decided. Whatever happens after that is based partly on your well founded plans and preparations and partly on time and circumstance.

I never saw it as my role to give life advice. Parents have that position. Weigh the risks, weigh the options and decide. Internally there may be disagreement with some choices made by others, but you know what? I find I disagree with most of the big decisions imposed on me by governments and authorities and I cant do anything about them either, so getting through life for me is merely dealing with the situation as is and helping where I can.

Some of the guys here gave up living on boats when the children were born and some continued with day or weekend sailing as the children grew. Some took the kids with them full time. My experience with both camps is that they made it work for them. Life events happen and its best to let others carry their own responsibility.

As for a boat, all that can be offered is PERSONAL advice regarding a vessel, and the OP will examine each suggestion according to his own criteria and make his own decision.

To diss catamarans as less safe is demonstrably false and is a reflection of a prejudice on the part of the information giver. Do Cats sink? Of course they do in the right circumstances-but statistically less than the rate monohulls sink in the right circumstances. Bottom line, bad weather, poor handling and hitting things can sink a boat. There are many long time Catamaran cruisers on CF who chose their vessel in preference to a mono, and are making their way around the world as I type.

Bulawayo, Monte, Colemj spring immediately to mind who give solid and reliable advice on Cats and have real experience.

I sail, and love sailing on either a mono or a Cat. My preference for "living" on a vessel is for a Cat, but if I cant have one then a nice chunky motor sailor vessel would do nicely. Others prefer sleek fast boats like Oysters and the such like.

In this day and age, there are a lot of good used boats for sale at reasonable prices. Your 'needs' will be different to others so make sure what you buy is relevant to YOU and no one else. Be happy with your choice and be comfortable on the vessel.

Practically, with the age of kids, plan your routes where you are able to get to land in the shortest time in the event of a medical issue arising. The one thing I would suggest right now, is to go out as a family in a moderate blow and see who gets seasick. That can take the edge off fun quicker than anything.

Good luck