An Apparently Stupid Way to Make Coffee

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Learn something every day. I always assumed the Moccamaster was some kind of "artisan" garage built overpriced thing, local to Finland where it's sold everywhere. Now I know better!

It is very efficient to use at home but parts don’t lock so for a boat I’m afraid the coffee grinds may go wherever the boat decides

The Zojirushi it all locks, plus you remove the water tank to fill it, which works better on a boat.

[Dockhead]

I acquired a DeLonghi bean-to-cup machine for my presently most-used land home a few months ago, and I have to say, I'm loving it. I had a much larger and vastly more expensive Saeco one in another home for years, but it broke some years ago and I never got around to fixing it.

I have been using it a lot and neglecting my other methods of making coffee on land. I am doing cappuccinos with non-dairy milk in the morning, then in the afternoon I have a few shots of espresso in little double walled cups. Life is good.

It occurred to me, however, that the economics of using beans is not actually so much better than Nespresso. Surprisingly. I'm paying anywhere from €20 to €30 per kg of good roasted espresso beans, and a shot of espresso take 8 to 10 grams. That means the raw coffee is at least €0.20 per shot, when I'm paying €0.30 per Nespresso pod. Where did I get the idea that beans are a lot cheaper than Nespresso?

So it's a kind of strange new respect for Nespresso moment. However, the bean to cup machine offers a lot more control. The new ones are much more compact so maybe feasible on some boats. The Nespresso machine on my boat has a hard life when we're cruising.

[MountainKing]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I acquired a DeLonghi bean-to-cup machine for my presently most-used land home a few months ago, and I have to say, I'm loving it. I had a much larger and vastly more expensive Saeco one in another home for years, but it broke some years ago and I never got around to fixing it.

I have been using it a lot and neglecting my other methods of making coffee on land. I am doing cappuccinos with non-dairy milk in the morning, then in the afternoon I have a few shots of espresso in little double walled cups. Life is good.

It occurred to me, however, that the economics of using beans is not actually so much better than Nespresso. Surprisingly. I'm paying anywhere from €20 to €30 per kg of good roasted espresso beans, and a shot of espresso take 8 to 10 grams. That means the raw coffee is at least €0.20 per shot, when I'm paying €0.30 per Nespresso pod. Where did I get the idea that beans are a lot cheaper than Nespresso?

So it's a kind of strange new respect for Nespresso moment. However, the bean to cup machine offers a lot more control. The new ones are much more compact so maybe feasible on some boats. The Nespresso machine on my boat has a hard life when we're cruising.

Well $0.30 per Nespresso pod, compared to $0.20 per shot is 50% more expensive, and for arguably much lower quality coffee. Plus all the plastic waste from the Nespresso pods.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by MountainKing

Well $0.30 per Nespresso pod, compared to $0.20 per shot is 50% more expensive, and for arguably much lower quality coffee. Plus all the plastic waste from the Nespresso pods.

Nespresso pods don't have any plastic in them. It's all recyclable alu.


€0.20 per shot in the bean-to-cup is minimum. If I turn up to 10g per shot and I'm using €30/kg coffee, it's €0.30 per shot, the same as Nespresso pods. I was very surprised at this.


Quality of Nespresso coffee is quite ok provided you like the strength which you can't vary. You can dial it in with the bean-to-cup.

[rslifkin]

Depending on your equipment and your ability to get freshly roasted coffee I'd say you can do far better than Nespresso or any other pod system. Not to say those are necessarily bad, but for any type of coffee (especially espresso) it's possible to do far better than the pods.

The automated bean to cup machines are typically not on par with the best grinders, espresso machines, etc. you can buy, although they take less skill and practice to use effectively and the good ones do still make very good coffee.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

Depending on your equipment and your ability to get freshly roasted coffee I'd say you can do far better than Nespresso or any other pod system. Not to say those are necessarily bad, but for any type of coffee (especially espresso) it's possible to do far better than the pods.

The automated bean to cup machines are typically not on par with the best grinders, espresso machines, etc. you can buy, although they take less skill and practice to use effectively and the good ones do still make very good coffee.

Sure, but going full artisan like that is going to be a challenge in the competition for space even on larger boats, especially if you do it right and roast your own.

I think I'm OK with Nespresso for espresso and French press or even cowboy coffee for normal coffee, on board. At home on land I'm experimenting with roasting my own.

But also I am spending more time on tea, which is very rewarding. I bought an all-in-one gongfu pot for the boat which is really the bomb -- replaces the whole kit of gongfu paraphernalia with an easily stowable single unit. Basically, it has an inner pot with sieve with a push-button valve, so you brew in that, then press the button, which releases the liquor into the main pot, then serve directly, no "fairness cup" or any of the rest of that required. The gongfu method uses much more tea per volume of water and much shorter infusion time, and the same tea is infused multiple times. It's really delicious. I had a pot of silver needle white tea this afternoon which almost made me forget about coffee, and it's got plenty of caffeine.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I acquired a DeLonghi bean-to-cup machine for my presently most-used land home a few months ago, and I have to say, I'm loving it. I had a much larger and vastly more expensive Saeco one in another home for years, but it broke some years ago and I never got around to fixing it.

I have been using it a lot and neglecting my other methods of making coffee on land. I am doing cappuccinos with non-dairy milk in the morning, then in the afternoon I have a few shots of espresso in little double walled cups. Life is good.

It occurred to me, however, that the economics of using beans is not actually so much better than Nespresso. Surprisingly. I'm paying anywhere from €20 to €30 per kg of good roasted espresso beans, and a shot of espresso take 8 to 10 grams. That means the raw coffee is at least €0.20 per shot, when I'm paying €0.30 per Nespresso pod. Where did I get the idea that beans are a lot cheaper than Nespresso?

So it's a kind of strange new respect for Nespresso moment. However, the bean to cup machine offers a lot more control. The new ones are much more compact so maybe feasible on some boats. The Nespresso machine on my boat has a hard life when we're cruising.

And a hell of a lot better tasting cup of coffee. Would be even better if you got raw beans and roasted them yourself as needed for about a week at a time or so . I went with most of my navy career having beans shipped to me for my grinding at time of use . Absolutely no comparison.

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Sure, but going full artisan like that is going to be a challenge in the competition for space even on larger boats, especially if you do it right and roast your own.

I think I'm OK with Nespresso for espresso and French press or even cowboy coffee for normal coffee, on board. At home on land I'm experimenting with roasting my own.

But also I am spending more time on tea, which is very rewarding. I bought an all-in-one gongfu pot for the boat which is really the bomb -- replaces the whole kit of gongfu paraphernalia with an easily stowable single unit. Basically, it has an inner pot with sieve with a push-button valve, so you brew in that, then press the button, which releases the liquor into the main pot, then serve directly, no "fairness cup" or any of the rest of that required. The gongfu method uses much more tea per volume of water and much shorter infusion time, and the same tea is infused multiple times. It's really delicious. I had a pot of silver needle white tea this afternoon which almost made me forget about coffee, and it's got plenty of caffeine.

I agree, space is issue on the boat. I don't get nearly as fancy on board and I don't have a grinder on the boat either.

[Zanshin]

I have a Comandante C40 hand-powered grinder and it is by far the best grinder I've used, bar none. And that includes commercial burr grinders. It uses no power apart from elbow grease and can grind from fine espresso to large pebble-sized chunks.

Regarding Nespresso pods - in Germany some city governments banned using them for municipal buildings due to the waste. A recent study (I can't recall where I read it, perhaps on the commercial coffee association site) showed that Nespresso pods aren't as wasteful as originally thought. The combination of recycling paths for the aluminum and the lack of wasted coffee makes it as efficient in terms of resources per cup as regular filtered coffee.

[Dooglas]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

It occurred to me, however, that the economics of using beans is not actually so much better than Nespresso. Surprisingly. I'm paying anywhere from €20 to €30 per kg of good roasted espresso beans, and a shot of espresso take 8 to 10 grams. That means the raw coffee is at least €0.20 per shot, when I'm paying €0.30 per Nespresso pod. Where did I get the idea that beans are a lot cheaper than Nespresso?

Two observations. First - old roasted beans (i.e. stale) and poorer quality roasted beans detract from the cup whether they are in a Nespresso pod or other means of brewing. Second - I buy excellent quality green beans at about $5 to $8 per pound in 20 lb lots and roast them myself. That is the way to get best quality beans and brew them when still truly fresh. Also about the cheapest way to source and drink excellent coffee.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Dooglas

Two observations. First - old roasted beans (i.e. stale) and poorer quality roasted beans detract from the cup whether they are in a Nespresso pod or other means of brewing. Second - I buy excellent quality green beans at about $5 to $8 per pound in 20 lb lots and roast them myself. That is the way to get best quality beans and brew them when still truly fresh. Also about the cheapest way to source and drink excellent coffee.

I am starting to roast at home. I presume the results will eventually be superior to buying already roasted beans, although I have yet to achieve the quality of what I get from the local roasters. I will not attempt this on board; too much faff and too much apparatus required.



One of the beauties of Nespresso (one of the several) is that the coffee is fresh roasted, immediately ground, and immediately packed into the capsules in nitrogen. The coffee doesn't go stale.


Home roasting is cheaper than buying from your small local artisanal coffee roaster, but it's still not dramatically cheaper than Nespresso. Over here good green beans are around €15-20/kg.

[poiu]

Originally Posted by Zanshin

While on the general subject of coffee: a scale is important to make repeatably good coffee regardless of brew method. Weigh the beans and weigh the water. I have a great little Hario scale that is designed for coffee making, it is accurate and has a timer.

What the designers didn't plan on was that the scale was going to be used on a boat that rocks at anchor. When I turn it on or try to tare it, I get a "unst" (for "unstable") and cannot get it to zero. My anchorage today is rather rolly so I haven't been able to get a single good reading and just had to wing it. So a mechanical scale is on my list of things to buy!

If you like drip filters you might want to check this out. It’s what I use on the boat. On land it’s a bean to cup machine. I anm inches anway from getting one as I do like it the best.

The advantage of this gadget is you can time the water exposure to suit your taste. Let it flow through after a few seconds or 5 minutes. I leave it to steep for just a minute. Plus it has a wide base and is fairly safe. I put a wide mug on a breadboard on the gimballed cooker and the filter on top, so it works underway quite well too.

https://cleverbrewing.coffee/products/clever-dripper

[MountainKing]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Nespresso pods don't have any plastic in them. It's all recyclable alu.


€0.20 per shot in the bean-to-cup is minimum. If I turn up to 10g per shot and I'm using €30/kg coffee, it's €0.30 per shot, the same as Nespresso pods. I was very surprised at this.


Quality of Nespresso coffee is quite ok provided you like the strength which you can't vary. You can dial it in with the bean-to-cup.

Where I sail in the Caribbean, most of the islands don't have any recycling infrastructure, so it all ends up as waste. There definitely is a lot of variation in how much you choose to pay for your coffee, makes it hard to directly compare costs. You could make your own coffee for much less, or a lot more than Nespresso pods I guess... As long as we have coffee, I guess that's what matters.

[s/v Jedi]

We buy the Kirkland Signature Colombian Supremo beans at $8 per pound and they are great.

Also, you can buy larger packs with restaurant suppliers that come at better prices.

Roasting green coffee beans is something I definitely want to try

[Dooglas]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

One of the beauties of Nespresso (one of the several) is that the coffee is fresh roasted, immediately ground, and immediately packed into the capsules in nitrogen. The coffee doesn't go stale.

Perhaps I am just harder to please than some. Several of my friends use Nespresso machines and they (along with K-cups) have become common at hotels and other lodgings that I have visited. Nespresso capsules do not produce the same reddish brown bloom when brewed as freshly roasted coffee. And more importantly, I do not find the flavor comparable to my own roasted beans or to fresh roast from a local boutique roaster. In fairness, longer cruises would make either of those approaches difficult to impossible.