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Old 05-02-2018, 17:34   #31
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Re: 27ft cruising reality

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Thank you for your insights. You are correct about 2 people occupying the same space at the same time. Example-while a anchor. Over a period of time it does lead to some frustration. Also larger boats are more sea kindly and faster. I noticed in the yacht club races (I single-hand) I come in dead last every single time when up against larger boats. However, my boat does handle rough seas and gusty winds well. The newer designed boats of similar size as mine tend to reef much sooner than I do. Maybe I'm just doing it wrong. I have raced a Force 5 dinghy for the last few years and have done well with it. I dunno.

I was only addressing comforts, 27 footers have ventured far out and in a solid boat, they usually are safe. We were safe in our Hunter, but gosh I would not liked to have lived on it. But if you're young and can afford cruising... hey, go for it
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Old 05-02-2018, 17:52   #32
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Re: 27ft cruising reality

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I was only addressing comforts, 27 footers have ventured far out and in a solid boat, they usually are safe. We were safe in our Hunter, but gosh I would not liked to have lived on it. But if you're young and can afford cruising... hey, go for it
You are correct in the quality of comfort. It will take some deep reflection on my part, as well as judging the character of the crew member to truly determine if I can accommodate cramped conditions. I'm not young any more, and this winter I am feeling it. I know the boat will survive my miscalculations, a testament to its robustness.
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Old 05-02-2018, 18:48   #33
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Re: 27ft cruising reality

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You are correct in the quality of comfort. It will take some deep reflection on my part, as well as judging the character of the crew member to truly determine if I can accommodate cramped conditions. I'm not young any more, and this winter I am feeling it. I know the boat will survive my miscalculations, a testament to its robustness.

"Comfort" is relative. I just watched a YouTube video of the Delos crew sailing in some rough southern ocean weather. They are young people on what I consider a large boat. I don't know what it is but its at least a 40 footer. They all complained of not being comfortable and having a hard time getting rest. They got wet and they got tired. And their autopilot conked out too !

From what I've seen and experienced even cruise ships can be uncomfortable. If size really mattered that much no one would be able to do it in Flicka's at all. When the weather is rough we all get wet and tired. Heck I was on Frigates and a Cruiser in the US Navy and I still got wet and tired !! I can remember a guy getting shaken out of his rack and dislocating a shoulder in the process. And that was a 400 footer !!!

My point being that size is not THE determining factor. Sure there will be uncomfortable times. But there will be so many more GOOD ones !

I'm right with you about the watermaker and windvane. Two projects that will get done on my CD28. I already have a good electric tiller pilot and I'll probably get a backup for that too. I'll take water over refrigeration, although I'll see if I can do both. But I plan to keep things as simple as possible.

For me half the reason for doing this is to live differently. If all I wanted was an iced drink and grilled steak and air conditioning and a pillowtopped mattress I'd stay home. I have all that now. And yes I appreciate it but it doesn't fulfill my need for something more !! I will admit I've lived in Florida and worked outside most of my life so heat and humidity are what I consider normal conditions. In fact the older I get the more I like the heat and really dislike winter !

I get the age thing too. Lol, as Clinton said - "I feel your pain." I'm 56 and I won't get to go for several more years, likely not till I'm 62. But as long as I can maintain health close to what I have now I am going. And by then I'll have my boat well and done and I'll know her intimately. It sounds like you already know yours.

But there are men and women out there doing this 20 years older than I am. And doing it in 27 footers too ! If they can do it, so can we, so can anyone. So again I say - Go man go !
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Old 05-02-2018, 18:54   #34
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Re: 27ft cruising reality

Read the Pardee books to inspire keeping it simple.
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Old 05-02-2018, 19:22   #35
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Re: 27ft cruising reality

Yes, that's spelled "Pardey", Lyn and Larry.

I'm thinking, you will need either another water tank or the watermaker, or both. Jim and I made do in the hot climates on 1/2 gal/per person per day (approx. 2 liters pp/pd). I used sea water to pre-wash the dishes, and stored up clothes to wash in port, which meant we had to carry enough unders, etc.

The trip from Cabo to the Marquesas will be at least 3 weeks, possibly as much as 6 (depends on time spent w/o wind, and hove to), so you will need water for that long, plus some for emergency, and provisions for the 6 wks., as well.

Make an awning that is water-proof, that you can lower the center of, and sew a fabric funnel that you can seize onto a through hull type fitting (plastic), than you can run rain water into a bucket, with another barb about 1/3 the way up the side. That space is the settling ground for particulates. From the bucket, you can guide it into your tank fill with a piece of tygon hose. In truth, we never bothered with the settling bucket, but friends did. You let the rain wash the awning for a while, before you start collecting drinking water, but, at least in our experience, we never had a problem from doing that.

Something else we found, on passage, the citified world is far, far away. Survival is relevant, but time, far less so. It is just you, or you guys, the sea, the weather, and living within that environment.

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Old 05-02-2018, 19:36   #36
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Re: 27ft cruising reality

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"Comfort" is relative. I just watched a YouTube video of the Delos crew sailing in some rough southern ocean weather. They are young people on what I consider a large boat. I don't know what it is but its at least a 40 footer. They all complained of not being comfortable and having a hard time getting rest. They got wet and they got tired. And their autopilot conked out too !

From what I've seen and experienced even cruise ships can be uncomfortable. If size really mattered that much no one would be able to do it in Flicka's at all. When the weather is rough we all get wet and tired. Heck I was on Frigates and a Cruiser in the US Navy and I still got wet and tired !! I can remember a guy getting shaken out of his rack and dislocating a shoulder in the process. And that was a 400 footer !!!

My point being that size is not THE determining factor. Sure there will be uncomfortable times. But there will be so many more GOOD ones !

I'm right with you about the watermaker and windvane. Two projects that will get done on my CD28. I already have a good electric tiller pilot and I'll probably get a backup for that too. I'll take water over refrigeration, although I'll see if I can do both. But I plan to keep things as simple as possible.

For me half the reason for doing this is to live differently. If all I wanted was an iced drink and grilled steak and air conditioning and a pillowtopped mattress I'd stay home. I have all that now. And yes I appreciate it but it doesn't fulfill my need for something more !! I will admit I've lived in Florida and worked outside most of my life so heat and humidity are what I consider normal conditions. In fact the older I get the more I like the heat and really dislike winter !

I get the age thing too. Lol, as Clinton said - "I feel your pain." I'm 56 and I won't get to go for several more years, likely not till I'm 62. But as long as I can maintain health close to what I have now I am going. And by then I'll have my boat well and done and I'll know her intimately. It sounds like you already know yours.

But there are men and women out there doing this 20 years older than I am. And doing it in 27 footers too ! If they can do it, so can we, so can anyone. So again I say - Go man go !
Thanks for the inspiration. I have lived an uncomfortable life so far and it has always motivated me to get up and move and do something else. I figured if I got too comfortable I would just sit down and not strive to achieve the next goal. I came to Alaska on a one way plane ticket from Newfoundland, no safety net, so I had to make it work, I could not fail. I had no choice. I was a penny pincher. No new cars, clothes, or fancy food. The wife hated me for it but I raised 3 good boys. Now I am 46 and retired from the aviation field. I was kind of hoping to spend some of that money on steak and cold drinks. Maybe discomfort is the motivation factor that will see me thru. None the less, I will go with what I have and not lament what I don't have. Delos crew, just cant relate. I watched 2 episodes and was put off by the newly entitled. I like people who are down to earth.
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Old 05-02-2018, 20:35   #37
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Re: 27ft cruising reality

I cruised around for a bit in a Pearson 28-1.2 which was more of a weekender than a cruiser like the Vega, and mostly coastal with the longest uninterrupted passage being 5ish days from the Bahamas to Charleston.

A few things that might be useful to consider:
My holding and water tanks were in the bow, which is not typically a good place for heavy things like water and poop. I tried to keep things light there by storing light starches (crackers, snacks, etc.) in the bow lockers. Even though the hoses on the holding tank were pretty new and there were no leaks in the system, all that stuff was ruined in about three weeks. Somehow it just sucked up humidity in those lockers. The same goods stored aft in the galley were fine.

It's really easy to overload small boats. I cruised around with a bunch of canned goods that had me on a permanent tilt and about a half-inch below the waterline on one side. I still easily hit hull speed in a good wind and at no time felt unsafe, but did notice a difference when I went back to lightship upon returning home.

Someone mentioned "Across Islands and Oceans". One of the mods the author made to his boat was to drill through the deck at the point where the gunwales directed water off the deck and overboard. He put a valve there that allowed him to open the hole and guide water into his tanks from the deck. I've tried raincatching in the Bahamas, but the rain storms never lasted long enough for me to find the rain catcher, deploy it, and capture a meaningful amount of water - and if I did manage to do so, the wind would capture it something fierce. The deck fills, on the other hand, require no deployment. I'm not sure how rain storms are on the Pacific crossing though.

At various times, I had my cousin and a friend on the boat (separate times for each). The vBerth and the settee provided adequate separation and we did not feel on top of each other. Another thing to consider regarding stowage though is whether you can leave one or both quarterberths free, or if you'll be string lee cloths along the settees. You'll need a decent passage berth for both people, and that may mean sacrificing further space.
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Old 06-02-2018, 01:48   #38
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Re: 27ft cruising reality

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So I know many people have cruised far in these Albin Vegas. They are a sturdy platform designed in a previous era of minimalism. In your experience or opinion, do they have enough capacity in food and water storage to safely provision 2 occupants for 40+ days at sea (Pacific Crossing) without overloading and degrading performance? I have been thinking about purchasing a watermaker and self steering vane, but something inside of me thinks that a 34-36 foot boat would be much better suited for this endeavor. This came about after a friend conveyed to me that his larger boat had a very rough journey (comfort and space wise) and would be remiss to travel in a small boat like mine. I have spent thousands on my current boat and am not savvy to spend any more if there is a possibility that it would be sub-standard platform. I also want to be able to maintain clean-cut, semi-professional look instead of looking like a beach bum. Apologies to the Captain Ron look alike, but that just isn't my look, especially in the resort areas. I would put my future spending money into a larger boat. Do I have big boat-itis or just unrealistic snobbery...? Cheers anyways.
Well, here's another notion from me. We cruised 18 yrs on a 36 footer that was not set up originally as a cruising boat.

Chalk and cheese, in terms of capabilities vs. any 27 footer and the 36 footer. The latter is way more stable, and longer days' runs make life easier. I would imagine with a 34-36 or 38 footer, designed for cruising, life would be better. But, take a look at A64 pilot's issues: he still thinks he hasn't enough fuel tankage.

To me, there's an irony here. You had one guy say take out the inboard engine--DON'T-- and put on an o/b. Don't, basically not as reliable, boat's designed for the inboard, just don't. If you use the i/b only for entering and leaving port, it will give you many thousands of hours of trouble free service. Don't ditch it for illusory storage and less reliability. It will keep you safe, and help you.

However, the 27 really may be too small for you plus someone else.. It looks like a weekender kind of boat, on sailboat data.

But at the end of the day, you sit down and run the numbers, water first, food second, fuel third. Decide if you think the present boat really can do you. It is not really about what others have done, but what feels right for you, not day sailing in AK, but out in the vast Pacific.

Personally, I support both ideas, but bigger is stabler more often.

Ann
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Old 06-02-2018, 02:20   #39
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Re: 27ft cruising reality

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Thanks for the inspiration. I have lived an uncomfortable life so far and it has always motivated me to get up and move and do something else. I figured if I got too comfortable I would just sit down and not strive to achieve the next goal. I came to Alaska on a one way plane ticket from Newfoundland, no safety net, so I had to make it work, I could not fail. I had no choice. I was a penny pincher. No new cars, clothes, or fancy food. The wife hated me for it but I raised 3 good boys. Now I am 46 and retired from the aviation field. I was kind of hoping to spend some of that money on steak and cold drinks. Maybe discomfort is the motivation factor that will see me thru. None the less, I will go with what I have and not lament what I don't have. Delos crew, just cant relate. I watched 2 episodes and was put off by the newly entitled. I like people who are down to earth.
Hey Tim, thanks for your kind words. I'm certainly no ascetic, and I'm honest enough to admit if I had more money I'd probably go a little bigger - but not by much. Briefly, I bought the biggest and best boat I could that would fit where I can keep her for free. I have a customer that trades me dock space for pool cleaning services, and the boat is less than 10 minutes from my house ! I can't beat that.

I can't relate to the Delos crew either, my mention of them was only to show that even with their large boat the motion in bad weather is uncomfortable. Heck, I can't relate to what seems like most people here on CF, most appear to have much more resources than I do ! But - that is not the point either. I'm certainly not whining about what I don't have. And perhaps I appear to have more than plenty of others. Its all relative.

No, for me, and I'm positive I'm not alone in this, I feel a bit adrift in the modern era. I like to joke "I would love to go back to the days of rotary phones and no cable tv." And it certainly was simpler then. The generation before me (perhaps 2 gens ? Lol) might say they could go back to the days of no tv and great radio shows !

But sailing is a chance to do just that, at least for a little while. I'm sure many would agree that if you have steak and pillowtops everyday and you never know what its like without them, you won't appreciate them as much. And I really don't think you can get as close to the real nitty gritty if you don't leave some of it behind.

Here - we used to have a travel trailer, a nice one with the slide-outs and all the goodies. We'd take the kids and go, and sure we would see some nature and have a campfire and it was great, but at the end of the day ( and oft times the beginning) we were buttoned up with the AC and TV just like at home. Now, those were great times and I wouldn't trade them, but they didn't fill that place in me that longs for something more.

For ME, I don't want to sail like I'm in that RV. Even if I'm in paradise, if at the end of the day I'm walking into AC and a pillowtop, I feel like I might as well stay at a hotel. Heck, if we are honest its probably cheaper to just fly around to different places and stay for a few weeks in a motel !! But it's definitely not going to fulfill the longing in me for the intimate experience of sailing a small boat to far away places. And when I do get the chance for the AC and pillowtop they will be all the sweeter !

And I think many on here will agree.
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Old 06-02-2018, 02:44   #40
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Re: 27ft cruising reality

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Well, here's another notion from me. We cruised 18 yrs on a 36 footer that was not set up originally as a cruising boat.

Chalk and cheese, in terms of capabilities vs. any 27 footer and the 36 footer. The latter is way more stable, and longer days' runs make life easier. I would imagine with a 34-36 or 38 footer, designed for cruising, life would be better. But, take a look at A64 pilot's issues: he still thinks he hasn't enough fuel tankage.

To me, there's an irony here. You had one guy say take out the inboard engine--DON'T-- and put on an o/b. Don't, basically not as reliable, boat's designed for the inboard, just don't. If you use the i/b only for entering and leaving port, it will give you many thousands of hours of trouble free service. Don't ditch it for illusory storage and less reliability. It will keep you safe, and help you.

However, the 27 really may be too small for you plus someone else.. It looks like a weekender kind of boat, on sailboat data.

But at the end of the day, you sit down and run the numbers, water first, food second, fuel third. Decide if you think the present boat really can do you. It is not really about what others have done, but what feels right for you, not day sailing in AK, but out in the vast Pacific.

Personally, I support both ideas, but bigger is stabler more often.

Ann
Thank you Ann for that very thoughtful reply. I know this post is about choices and decisions. If the opportunity to buy a larger vessel at the right price arises, I will do so. I'm not in a hurry as I do not plan to make the crossing for another couple of years. But ultimately, I will go with what I have and make it work. My gut feeling is that 34-36ft can be better provisioned and have a little elbow room too.
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Old 06-02-2018, 03:44   #41
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I lived on and sailed a 23ft Virgo Voyager for a couple of years.. got me where I wanted to go.. along the S coast and across to France.. no inboard, just a 5hp hung of the back.. seemed spacious after the Tiki 26 with its standing headroom but did not sail half as well and the OB was useless in any chop.. scream, bite, scream..
Then got together with a lady and by the time she'd got her gear on board the boot stripe was a couple of inches under water.. lol.. so we decided to upsize.
Went for a Westerly Longbow at 31x9x5.. first time I looked into the saloon from the cockpit I thought.. 'Damn.. I can open a disco in there..'
That boat was large and comfortable enough to live aboard, sail down to the Med and around for 4yrs and my first ever inboard engine was bliss once I'd cleared all the 'Purist' stuff outa my head.. also my first ever GPS.
Batteries always charged (Engine and wind genny).. choice of 2 double berths.. saloon and V berth, the two quarter berths were used to store clothes in bins ironed and neatly folded with a cut to size square of strong plastic sheet and bungee cord over the top, it was a palace.
I'd not go bigger than 32ft if you do upsize.. I bought a 39ftr in Malta 3yrs ago and was regretting the extra size within months.. am now looking for a 27-32ftr at the right price.. you don't gain enough to warrant the size in my opinion.. and though you may gain an extra 10/15nm daily average the downsides are not worth it.
One of the best ways I've found for catching rain water is hang a bucket at the goose neck, raise the boom with the topping lift to create a bit of sag and the water will run down the sail, along the sag and into the bucket.
Mainly rain in the trades comes in squalls so your sail areas going to get more surface coverage as a catcher, the heel and sag at the bottom is going to deflect/catch a lot more water than a horizontal sagging bimini.
I was using two buckets, fill, switch, empty into 5 litre containers, switch.. I found the buckets filled so fast I could barely keep up.
Okay.. that's my first coffee blather done..
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Old 06-02-2018, 03:52   #42
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Re: 27ft cruising reality

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My gut feeling is that 34-36ft can be better provisioned and have a little elbow room too.
The one thing that I notice stepping on board a 34 ft yacht is not so much the length but the room inside. The extra width and height means there is much more room, or appears to be, so less of the cabin fever feeling.

However, I think the two of you should take off for the summer with the AV and see how it goes. Yes to a tiller pilot, we used a TP for a decade even though we have a wheel, without problems. No to the water maker just now, use extra tanks and drums. A full cockpit enclosure would be high on the list if you are sailing the PNW. We have a similar climate and it's on our "to do" list but for the time being a cheap bimini plus sprayhood and dodgers keep the rain at bay.

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Old 06-02-2018, 03:52   #43
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Re: 27ft cruising reality

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As I stated, others will have different opinions. Now as to land, when poop happens.... 20+knot winds and the seas build to 4-5 you just might not like it and would better enjoy heading to a safe harbor. And yeah, we took our Hunter out great distances...Nantucket, Block Island, once to Nomans but we did so by starting from our slip and not in the middle of 5+ day cruise where weather changes can make a huge difference. No, I am not implying a 27' boat will be unsafe in 20+ wind but it certainly will not be comfortable.
Actually, a heavier 27' boat similar to mine is pretty comfortable in 20+ knots winds especially sailing off the wind a bit.

I don't like it on the stern quarters much for hours on end but closer to dead downwind which you can do offshore its quite nice and you make good time. In a small bay though, you may be forced to stay on a certain course due to shallow water and other obstacles etc
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Old 06-02-2018, 03:57   #44
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Re: 27ft cruising reality

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I think the water requirements for the tropics is vastly different than that of the north pacific, but I get what you are saying. My 14 gallon tank is plenty of water for 2 people for a week cruise doing the usual drinking, dish wash and cleaning. In the tropics where you sweat even while you sleep, I don't know is 80 gallons is enough for 2 passengers on a 40+ day crossing? Not considering delays either.
You'd definitely need another tank plus lots of gallon bottles. Again, you can test this as you head South, and the heat starts to come on stronger.

The engine on my boat has been removed which would as someone mentioned earlier make for a good spot for more storage. The old Bukh 10 HP diesel that was in the boat before weighed 352 lbs!
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Old 06-02-2018, 05:17   #45
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Re: 27ft cruising reality

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An attached rudder is one whose leading edge is attached to the keel, not hanging in space like a spade rudder. Even if it's only attached at a shoe on the keel and a tube with bearings in the hull, it's far better than a spade.

Though what boatman thought I meant in the post after yours is even better: a stern-hung is the best sort of rudder for a small boat.
I understand the distinction, just not sure why you feel this is a "must have" for a small boat? As opposed to a big boat? Small boat big boat what's the difference?

As far as being better? Well, old school heavy displacement full keel with attached rudder vs modern light displacement with detached Spade has been debated on the forum a million times.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but if you have some subtle wisdom to share why an attached rudder is somehow preferable specifically on a small boat I am all ears.

Personally, I agree a transom-hung rudder is the "best" rudder for a small boat for several reasons.
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