Zeppelin bend - dissimilar sized ropes?

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by twohapence

Why not use a sheet bend (or double sheet bend)? Quick, easy, and secure. I'm not defending the sheet bend - just curious as to why I might want to learn to tie the zepplin other than as a fun thing to do.

Both the sheet bend and double sheet bend will shake loose frighteningly easily if load is applied and released continually. Unlike the Zeppelin bend, you would never consider towing a boat using either, for example, or say extending a snubber in an emergency.

The Zeppelin bend is ultimately stronger than both as well.

The term "dressing" refers to tightening a knot up by hand before any load is applied. Most knots (even the bowline) will either bind, or worse still slip, unless this is done. It can be slow and difficult to do well when dealing with stiff, old line. The Zeppelin Bend is one of the rare knots that copes with sudden load being applied without careful tightening beforehand. It is a major advantage in an emergency.

The Zeppelin isn't a "fun" bend. It is a superb way of joining two lines, with no drawbacks.

The Alpine Butterfly is the next best thing and belongs to the same "family" of four bends based on intertwined overhands. The only drawback with it is that it does take a bit of time to "dress". Seconds only if the line is soft, but longer with old line. To top it off, there are 6 ways the lines can be arranged when it is fully tightened up. The ability to undo the bend after load is applied will depend on which version is used and possibly the strength of the bend will vary as well. Who needs those added complications with any knot?

SWL

[tinkrman69]

So how does the alpine butterfly knot join two lines of dissimilar sizes? Yah I don't think I'd use the zeppelin bend to make a mid line loop

[twohapence]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

Unlike the Zeppelin bend, you would never consider towing a boat using either, for example, or say extending a snubber in an emergency.

The Zeppelin isn't a "fun" bend. It is a superb way of joining two lines, with no drawbacks.

SWL

I have three 100 Mtr lengths of rope, 8mm 3 strand polyester line on a reel, along with two braid on braid at 12mm and 16mm. I prefer being able to provide very long lengths when required.

Your points are well made though. I'll have a look at the zepplin and practise tying the knot.

I think I got away without any inneuendo in the post so hopefully have got everyone's mind back on a seaman like approach to the issue in hand.

[knockabout]

sheep shank works ok /or wire to cord make two loops on the ends with granny knots then poke one loop through the other take the bitter end through the loop and pull tight/zeppelin looks interesting / does it need flames to tighten

[StuM]

Originally Posted by twohapence

Why not use a sheet bend (or double sheet bend)? Quick, easy, andsecure. I'm not defending the sheet bend - just curious as to why I might want to learn to tie the zepplin other than as a fun thing to do.

Quick - not as quick as the Zep.
Easy - not as easy as the Zep.
Secure - NOT! - especially under cyclic loads.

Also:

Non jamming - easier to untie after heavy loads

Self dressing - no need to fuss around making sure that it is neatly and tightly dressed before use. It dresses itself perfectly as soon as you put load on it.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by Privleoplag

ABA all the way!

very similar to how I do it.. but I take number one over all 3, and then number 2 over, under and through all.

That's an Alpine Butterfly LOOP, not an Alpine Butterfly BEND.

Entirely different purpose. I'm also of fan of of the AB as a loop (SWL and I differ in opinions on this one).

[StuM]

Originally Posted by twohapence

Not sure what you mean by dress but I find it one of the easiest knots to make.

Dressing = arranging a knot after initial tying to optimise strength and security and to minimize jamming/overturning. Making sure that crossovers etc are in the desired place.

Proper dressing of knots is essential.

[SaltyMonkey]

Here is one way to make it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Gmc65XeyNI

BUT there is an easier way to make it VERY quickly with one hand

This video SORT of demonstrates. You DONT need the tape. Simply wrap the ends around the hand

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TebtrjMlDTc

[SaltyMonkey]

So as you can obviously see from the videos, the Alpine Butterfly is VERY easy to learn and there are many ways to make them especially if you are tired and in the dark. There aren't mounds and mounds of lessons to learn and have to pay for like the Zeppelin, and more importantly, you're less likely to injure yourself or those around you, such as small children or cute fuzzy dogs.

[Symphony]

thanks for all this - love learning new bends

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by knockabout

zeppelin looks interesting / does it need flames to tighten

No flames (or blue tape) needed. Just don't mention the war.

SWL

[Palarran]

I'm sure all these knots are fantastic but I'd like to see one demo done with 3/4" dock line that's medium worn and full of salt and the knot tier is hanging two feet over the life lines doing it. None of this seems "real world situation" and for that, I'll stick to the bowline into a bowline every time because I can tie those upside down in near darkness with the standing end being yanked around constantly.

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by Palarran

I'm sure all these knots are fantastic but I'd like to see one demo done with 3/4" dock line that's medium worn and full of salt and the knot tier is hanging two feet over the life lines doing it. None of this seems "real world situation" and for that, I'll stick to the bowline into a bowline every time because I can tie those upside down in near darkness with the standing end being yanked around constantly.

How about a demo with a combo of 14 mm medium worn salt encrusted nylon snubber and old double braid tied on a pitching foredeck in the dark?

Snapping shots wasn't practical at the time this was tied, but this is how the Zep bend looked underwater after a night of holding our boat after a night of 25-35 knots:




The wind had risen sharply when we were on a short scope. Rather than hauling up chain to undo the soft shackle on the snubber, it was simpler to attach a bit more line.
This was a classic situation of needing to use the best of the best. Although a head torch helped in this instance, I could have tied this knot in the dark. No need to think of what knot was ideal while a little dopey having been rudely awakened by the rising wind.

Tying two bowlines would have been slow. Dressing them well would have been near impossible in the stiff line. It is likely a bowline would have seized when the snubber was released and a shock load applied (been there, done that ). Not impossible either that a bowline could slip in this situation. Why risk it? Also, it is also a poor choice when cyclical loads are applied underwater.

SWL

[Privleoplag]

Originally Posted by StuM

That's an Alpine Butterfly LOOP, not an Alpine Butterfly BEND.

Entirely different purpose. I'm also of fan of of the AB as a loop (SWL and I differ in opinions on this one).

Yeah.. I should have said the bend just puts the two ends of the rope as the number 2 (middle) line.. but hope most could have figured that out. Maybe, maybe Knot. (that was a funny).

this is also a great knot to isolate a weak spot in a rope.. just make the weak spot end up in the middle (number 2) when you wrap, and it's isolated.

[Palarran]

SWL,
I just couldn't do it myself and probably won't put that much time into learning the knot in the future. With our boat I haven't in the past had a situation which would lead to needing this knot.

With respect to the bowlines though, I do disagree. I'm pretty fast at tying them, never had one even come close to slipping, always been easy to untie, and if the last 5% of rope strength is lost in the selection of knot, I chose the wrong rope to begin with.

It's crazy how with your zep bend that it doesn't tighten more though. I'd have thought after a night of snubbing that the gaps would have pulled closed.