Would mandatory licensing change things?

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by newhaul

IMO the numbers are for way off that only comes to 3.2 billion miles per year in the USA
The commercial trucking industry racks up an estimated 140 billion miles per year.
https://hdstruckdrivinginstitute.com...rucks-numbers/

100 million miles / 1.25 deaths x 40k deaths per year = 3.2 billion miles

You’ll have to take that up with the OECD . That (apparently) is the source of the Wiki data.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by Singularity

There needs to be mandatory licensing in statistics to use/operate statistics. This would change things.

Agreed cost to taxpayer should be a concern, dare I say almost the only concern (if/when considering about the long-term viability of the whole activity). Citizens don't care, ultimately, if other citizens off themselves doing "dangerous or foolish" things. They just don't want to have to pay for the cleanup or the bickering in the 'rich people' hobby.

I think that would come under the heading of Darwin awards.

https://darwinawards.com

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by newhaul

I think that would come under the heading of Darwin awards.

https://darwinawards.com

I always say the mark of a free society is its tolerance for stupidity. People should be allowed to do stupid things — as long as the cost to others is not too great.

Stupidity almost comes at some cost to the community. Be it in from driving erratically, to making greedy gambles in the the stock market, to cruising on a sailboat, there are always some costs borne by others.

This is one of the constant tensions in all societies that at least strive for personal freedom — how to find (and maintain) the right balance.

[Singularity]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

I always say the mark of a free society is its tolerance for stupidity. People should be allowed to do stupid things — as long as the cost to others is not too great.

Stupidity almost comes at some cost to the community. Be it in from driving erratically, to making greedy gambles in the the stock market, to cruising on a sailboat, there are always some costs borne by others.

This is one of the constant tensions in all societies that at least strive for personal freedom — how to find (and maintain) the right balance.

This book (arguably) addresses the root of the tension. If you have a good mirror, you don't need the book. Come to think of it...it addresses stuff like stop sign frustration/traffic blame. If you've lived immersed in different cultures, you see this less in some, more with others. Reading the summary, reminds be of Freud's narcissism of small differences concept...which applies to traffic rage, etc.

"Why is it so hard to say “I made a mistake”—and really believe it?

When we make mistakes, cling to outdated attitudes, or mistreat other people, we must calm the cognitive dissonance that jars our feelings of self-worth. And so, unconsciously, we create fictions that absolve us of responsibility, restoring our belief that we are smart, moral, and right—a belief that often keeps us on a course that is dumb, immoral, and wrong. Backed by years of research, Mistakes Were Made (But Not by Me) offers a fascinating explanation of self-justification—how it works, the damage it can cause, and how we can overcome it. This updated edition features new examples and concludes with an extended discussion of how we can live with dissonance, learn from it, and perhaps, eventually, forgive ourselves."

PS: read the reviews on Amazon....first one says should be required reading for a driver's license renewal...

https://www.amazon.com/Mistakes-Were...5JP2Z4218052NE

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Singularity

This book (arguably) addresses the root of the tension. If you have a good mirror, you don't need the book. Come to think of it...it addresses stuff like stop sign frustration/traffic blame. If you've lived immersed in different cultures, you see this less in some, more with others. Reading the summary, reminds be of Freud's narcissism of small differences concept...which applies to traffic rage, etc.

"Why is it so hard to say “I made a mistake”—and really believe it?

When we make mistakes, cling to outdated attitudes, or mistreat other people, we must calm the cognitive dissonance that jars our feelings of self-worth. And so, unconsciously, we create fictions that absolve us of responsibility, restoring our belief that we are smart, moral, and right—a belief that often keeps us on a course that is dumb, immoral, and wrong. Backed by years of research, Mistakes Were Made (But Not by Me) offers a fascinating explanation of self-justification—how it works, the damage it can cause, and how we can overcome it. This updated edition features new examples and concludes with an extended discussion of how we can live with dissonance, learn from it, and perhaps, eventually, forgive ourselves."

Looks like a good read. As I’m sure you know, there are acres of research now available in the popular press from cognitive science, behavioural economics, and various social sciences, which all reinforce these kinds of findings.

Human beings are pretty funny animals when you put our individual and collective psychologies under a microscope.

[Mal Reynolds]

I am familiar with 5 incidents involving sailboat fatalities. Two occurred when someone fell overboard due to rough conditions and were unable to be retrieved, and in both cases were wearing lifejackets. The Aegean and Low Speed Chase incidents have been well investigated and are understood to be errors of judgement by relatively experienced skippers. The last incident happened when a guy went offshore, sunk his boat and committed suicide. Other incidents I'm less familiar with involve a death when boom tackle broke loose during a crash gybe and clocking the unfortunate victim on the head.



I happen to hold a boaters card for Canadian waters and this mostly covered rules of the road and lifejacket use. It's hard to see how licensing would have made any difference in any of the sailboat fatality instances that I am aware of.



I'd much rather be on a vessel with a skipper with more experience over a vessel with a licensed skipper with less experience.



Power boats are another matter that I can't really comment on.


Put me down as a "no", mandatory licensing would not change things for sailboaters, other than the unintended negative effects of lost time, fees, and less sailboating.

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

John, I don’t see the connection between economic profit and higher accident rates.

????
Tobacco, guns, alcohol, toxins in the environment, allowing private vehicles, overuse of salt/fats/sugar in our food supply, the widespread distribution of opiates. . .

All these involve a public calculus of cost vs benefits, risks vs rewards, and in most cases we have decided saving those human lives lost every year is not "realistic" or worth the hassles required.

Quite rightly so, most human lives aren't worth nearly as much as our ideals profess.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by john61ct

????
Tobacco, guns, alcohol, toxins in the environment, allowing private vehicles, overuse of salt/fats/sugar in our food supply, the widespread distribution of opiates. . .

All these involve a public calculus of cost vs benefits, risks vs rewards, and in most cases we have decided saving those human lives lost every year is not "realistic" or worth the hassles required.

Quite rightly so, most human lives aren't worth nearly as much as our ideals profess.

But we were talking about traffic fatalities .

Any or all of the above could be discussed separately. Or you can take some ultra macro philosophical perspective as you are doing here. I love those kinds of discussions, but they are far better done over many beers.

[john61ct]

I'm confused at your confusion.

The auto, fuel, rubber etc industries would never have grown to be so profitable and powerful if our urban design, land use & transportation systems planning (not to mention Madison Avenue) didn't lock Americans into being dependant on the use of private cars.

Effective public transportation is barely even imagined here compared to the rest of the developed world.

Elimination of, or much more stringent regulation of private automobile ownership, would save many thousands of human lives per year, and not just from accidents.

We have chosen to not do that.

Cool site came across today https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2...rn-equivalents

[Pete17C]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

... and Germany has a very dense traffic and NO SPEED LIMITS on the freeway!
I guess they are close to UK, because they too drive most of the time on the left side ;-)

While some parts of it are unrestricted, Germany does have speed limits on the autobahn.

[evm1024]

I've had 4 exchange students live with me over the years.

The Swede thought that he could drive to Disneyland for the weekend from the Portland area.

The Swiss thought that driving to Banff in the winter for the weekend would be nice.

The other Swede thought that there was no good ski areas in North America. I showed him that the Alps was only about the size of Colorado. That left the rest of the Rockies, the Cascades, BC and so on for other ski areas.

The Colombian thought that Douglass Firs were exotic and awesome.

[Pete17C]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

But we were talking about traffic fatalities .

Any or all of the above could be discussed separately. Or you can take some ultra macro philosophical perspective as you are doing here. I love those kinds of discussions, but they are far better done over many beers.

You have to remember to write down your solution, cause you never seem to have it all figured out in the morning.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by evm1024

I've had 4 exchange students live with me over the years.

The Swede thought that he could drive to Disneyland for the weekend from the Portland area.

The Swiss thought that driving to Banff in the winter for the weekend would be nice.

The other Swede thought that there was no good ski areas in North America. I showed him that the Alps was only about the size of Colorado. That left the rest of the Rockies, the Cascades, BC and so on for other ski areas.

The Colombian thought that Douglass Firs were exotic and awesome.

Now try superimposing Canada .

We got some big freakin’ countries here in NA. Takes me about 10 days of driving to reach my boat, which is over in Newfoundland. I’m currently in British Columbia.

[Pete17C]

Originally Posted by transmitterdan

Don’t forget that there are millions of unlicensed drivers in the US. And many of them are on the road every day. Just sayin...

look at how many (estimated) unlicensed pilots are flying around in Alaska.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Pete17C

You have to remember to write down your solution, cause you never seem to have it all figured out in the morning.

By the third round of beers I’ve got most of the world’s problems worked out. But for some reason I can’t quite remember it all by the morning .

How does that happen ?