Why won't a Spade Bite

[carstenb]

Originally Posted by Panope

I can report that having a vast anchor harem is cure for this problem.

I have no idea if this applies to humans.

Steve this is true for anchors. Sad to say. While I have never tried I doubt if it applies to women. Mores the pity

[Worthywl]

We have cruised extensively in the PNW and SE Alaska without the negative experience your friend is having with the Spade. A couple of thoughts: we are all chain rode and attached the anchor with a high test chain shackle only, we never needed a “spinning” attachment. We were concerned of the “weakest link” they provide to your system. (Credit to John’s blog on Attainable Adventure with a ton of great information on anchors and anchoring)
Spade recommends that the initial setting the anchor with a 4:1 scope, and as mentioned previously, we backed off the top of the anchor so we didn’t lay the chain on top of it before we set it. Of the tons of sets done in all sorts of bottom seascapes, the only setting issue we ever had was trying to bite in round river rock at the mouth of a river in Alaska. We set first try 99.9% of the time and then adjusted or scope to the environment expected. We have never once drug this anchor over the 6 years of cruising with it. “In Spade we trusted” in some very nautical situations without any failures. Retired and on the water…

[merrydolphin]

Wow, never had this problem.

I have cruised for decades on 5 different boats from 25’ to 46’. Had lots of anchors. Almost always lived on the hook. Countless thousands of nights on the anchor. The Spade definitely my favorite by far. After seeing the early Penelope tests, I bought a Spade and love it. One of its best features is the HEAVY TIP WEIGHT. So no idea on this one. Yes, could be a factory error on tip ballast.

By far my favorite anchor. Especially as I am not a fan of “Hoop” anchors. Although I know that there are some good ones.

[carstenb]

Well guys, yesterday we pulled anchor and I had a chance to study it closely. The shank does not appear to be bent and while I am no expert the tip seems ot have the requisite lead.

The anchor is fairly new - still has yellow paint on it.

But we are only getting a good set 50% of the time.

We have anchored close to 2000 times in virtually every type of substrate. We generally use 5:1 although will go 3:1 in close quarters.

The failure to set here has been with 3:1-5:1 scope, so I don't think that is the issue.

But we will be happy to get back to our Mantus since we can drop, set and forget it.

To each his own - although I still don't understand the failures on this Spade

[Dockhead]

I have used 3 or 4 different Spades since the 1990's and never had issues like that. In probably a thousand anchoring evolutions I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of times I couldn't get a Spade anchor to set, and that was always an impossible bottom like an inch of sand over solid rock. I've had a Spade anchor in all that time drag only once, and that was when I knew it hadn't set.

My last Spade is now apart in my bilge as I'm now using an Ultra, which is a stainless copy of a Spade with some slight changes to the geometry. This anchor doesn't seem to set quite as aggressively as the Spades, but it's still fine and I'm very happy with it.

My experiences with Spade anchors is typical, so I can only gather that example of the anchor Carsten's friend is using must be defective in some way. I've never used a Mantus but have heard only great things about them from their owners. I've never, however, heard anyone who has used both, say that the Mantus is better. But Steve will have a better informed opinion on this than mine, based on his vast experience and empirical research.

[carstenb]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I have used 3 or 4 different Spades since the 1990's and never had issues like that. In probably a thousand anchoring evolutions I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of times I couldn't get a Spade anchor to set, and that was always an impossible bottom like an inch of sand over solid rock. I've had a Spade anchor in all that time drag only once, and that was when I knew it hadn't set.

My last Spade is now apart in my bilge as I'm now using an Ultra, which is a stainless copy of a Spade with some slight changes to the geometry. This anchor doesn't seem to set quite as aggressively as the Spades, but it's still fine and I'm very happy with it.

My experiences with Spade anchors is typical, so I can only gather that example of the anchor Carsten's friend is using must be defective in some way. I've never used a Mantus but have heard only great things about them from their owners. I've never, however, heard anyone who has used both, say that the Mantus is better. But Steve will have a better informed opinion on this than mine, based on his vast experience and empirical research.

Dockhead - as I said, Now I¨ve tried both (tried setting the
spade perhaps 10-12 times and had 50% failure rate.

I will stick with my Mantus, although for those of you who like the Spade I have no issue with that,

[Kettlewell]

I have spent many nights at anchor in the same spot in one of my favorite harbors in New England and as a consequence get to observe many other boats dropping the hook. I have noted the tendency of Spades to not get an immediate bite, as we almost always do with our Mantus and Bulwagga anchors. In many cases when the anchor is retrieved after an unsuccessful attempt I can observe lots of mud and grass fouling the scoop portion of the Spade. The sad thing is that the boats that sport the Spade anchor tend to be cruisings boats that have obviously covered some miles, so I am assuming they know what they are doing. In this particular bottom, with firm mud and plenty of grass, the Spade just doesn't always cut it.

[David Mathis]

Our 20k Bruce, which we've used successfully for many years, had problems in hard sand when we first bought it. It dragged an unacceptable distance before penetrating. Occasionally it continued to drag without penetrating. It was noticed that the leading edge was rounded rather than sharp. A few minutes with an angle grinder provided a remedy. The top was also polished to remove the roughness from galvanizing - think about lift/drag ratios on a smooth wing as opposed to a rough one. The leading edge is now butter knife sharp and has no problem with penetration. A couple years ago we weathered a particularly nasty storm. The anchor didn't drag; the next morning I dove on it and found it had buried itself deep into the bottom. Retrieval was challenging but it held. It's notable how much a few minutes with a grinder improved the performance of this anchor.



I've never used a spade but if the leading edge is blunt or rounded, a few minutes with a grinder to sharpen it may bring about a significant improvement.

[Don C L]

Carsten, isn't Steve on Panope near you somewhere up there? Maybe he can swing by with his camera rig and do an on-site analysis and diagnose your particular problem. Enquiring minds want to know!

Steve, you don't mind me volunteering you for this do you?

[SailingHarmonie]

Originally Posted by carstenb

The owner loves his spade actually switched from a mantus

Exactly proves my point about the lack of objectivity most people have on anchors. I would if I had a run of consistent failures like you reported, my anchor would be headed for the recycle bin, or consignment shop.

It's one thing if it is in ONE spot. There are bottoms that even the best anchor just don't can not get a bite in, but multiple spots over multiple days I would NOT consider acceptable, and certainly would have me looking for a more reliable lover...I mean: anchor.

[SailingHarmonie]

Originally Posted by Kettlewell

The sad thing is that the boats that sport the Spade anchor tend to be cruisings boats that have obviously covered some miles, so I am assuming they know what they are doing.

In my experience, that would be a very poor assumption. I have watched experienced cruisers who learned to anchor years ago, and keep doing it the same--wrong--way over and over. Sometimes it works, sometimes it does not.

They are convinced that the way they were taught is best, and are as closed mined about alternative technique as others are about anchor design.

We anchored in a normal sandy bottom anchorage on the first drop of the anchor, which is so routine we never think about anything else. Another boat--experienced cruisers we knew--put down the same anchor, and dragged it SEVEN times before getting it to hold. It was actually embarrassing to watch.

[Tupaia]

Originally Posted by SailingHarmonie

Another boat--experienced cruisers we knew--put down the same anchor, and dragged it SEVEN times before getting it to hold. It was actually embarrassing to watch.

Was it their anchor or their technique?

[sailingharry]

Originally Posted by Tupaia

Was it their anchor or their technique?

And a better question for those of us who are willing to doubt their all-knowing-ness. If it was their technique, what was wrong?

We think we are super slick anchor-ers. Our only dragging problem was in the weedy bottom ofLlake Ontario (where this forum counseled us to never anchor in less than 20' -- problem solved). But maybe our 25kg Rocna makes us look good in spite of our technique. [emoji39]

Seriously, what do you think they were doing wrong?

[Kettlewell]

Seriously, what do you think they were doing wrong?

If you haven't had problems anchoring someplace you haven't been enough places! First thought would be insufficient scope, which is the #1 problem I see. Let out more than enough scope to set the anchor, then shorten up later if required. Second thing I see a lot is people drop their anchor, sometimes with a pile of chain on top, proceed to let out lots of scope, then sail downwind and proceed to back down hard. In hard bottoms like sand it doesn't give the anchor time enough to work its point in and the anchor will just skid across the bottom. Or, it could be a combination: too little scope and jerking the anchor too fast across the bottom without having gradually set it by snubbing a few times. Sometimes it is just bad luck. In that same spot I mentioned above there is an area that is extremely weedy to the point almost nobody can get an anchor to hold properly, yet I was there a few weeks ago in a bit of a blow and a small power cruiser spent the night over there while other boats were dragging where the holding is much better. When they pulled their anchor in the morning it was a small Danforth that I have seen fail in that location many times. They probably lucked into a mucky patch where someone had pulled out a clump of weed previously.

[Panope]

Originally Posted by carstenb

......The past several weeks we have been sailing some friends boat in Greece.........

Originally Posted by Don C L

........Maybe he can swing by with his camera rig and do an on-site analysis and diagnose your particular problem. Enquiring minds want to know!

Steve, you don't mind me volunteering you for this do you?

I don't mind at all as long as you're covering the airfare!