Tried out a bit of sailing upwind,

[hlev00]

The jib cars are set correctly when the all of the windward telltales begin to dance around at the same time as you head closer to the wind. If the top dances around first, you need to move the car forward - which would be typical of changing from a reach to close hauled. If the bottom ones dance around first then the car needs to be pulled back. The photo that shows the top luffing is an example of needing to move the car forward. This guideline applies to setting the cars when off the wind as well.


One other thing. As you sail upwind the apparent wind increases and you will start heeling in higher winds. On our Beneteau 423, we start reefing at more than 12kts true when sailing upwind. Excessive heeling is uncomfortable and slow. Depending on our overall cruising plan, we often sail upwind with only our genoa as the main flogs around getting backwinded by the genoa.



Harry
s/v Juno
https://juno423.blogspot.com

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by jmh2002

Sorry, but no they should not be.

There is no "vacuum side" (where do people get this terminology from?) that would imply no airflow at all.

The inside (windward) tell tales can be dancing a bit, usually up at something like a 45deg angle, but certainly not limp. And for a cruising boat, heavier, and with a less efficient keel and rudder, and needing a bit more power from the sails, both tell tales streaming aft is probably simplest.

Here is a simple article:
https://www.pbo.co.uk/seamanship/tro...elltales-24274

I could be wrong, I can only speak from experience.

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by Cadence

I could be wrong, I can only speak from experience.

I speak from experience too...

But if you don't believe me there are dozens of articles online by sailmakers similar to what I posted (I chose the one with the most illustrative photos for the OP).

[KC375]

Originally Posted by Mr B

There are tell tales on the Genoa, Bill, They were horizontal most of the time,
I single hand all the time, There is no such thing as others on my boat,

Youtube tutorials look like the go for me,
3000 Nmiles on my boat and this is the first time I ever tried sailing up wind,
The wind beam on, is usually the most I go, Being a Cat, I get slammed under the bridge deck and its not pleasant with the wind on the nose, ,

Let me suggest four reasons to work on your ability to get the most sailing performance from your boat.
1. Safety. When you really really need to get up wind from where you are...that will be when your engine fails...clawing yourself off a lee shore in a surprise storm is not the time to learn to sail to windward.
2. Fun. As you learn how to get the most out of your sails you may well start to have fun doing it – an amusing extra thing on long passages – you don’t need to become obsessive compulsive, just a bit more attuned.
3. Passage times. As you become more adept you might find an extra half knot or a knot...that adds up over long passages.
4. Economy. As you get more comfortable with your sails you may find you choose to motor a bit less.
Non of that is to suggest you should make a habit of beating to weather in heavy seas pounding yourself senseless...but having the ability to that might just save your life.
There are plenty of vids and books on how to...probably better than one off advice on this thread. There isn’t a single right setting for a single wind angle. You will need to adjust as wind speed changes and as wind sheer changes (as you go up your sail the wind angle changes so you need some twist to get maximum drive from your sail).
I’m partial to Bethwaite’s High Performance Sailing but I’m sure there are a bunch of others.
Find your chosen “source” of info, make sure you have working instruments – includes a bunch of tell tales in a bunch of places, wind instruments, knot meter etc. Then go out and apply your learning while watching to see what increases boat speed.
Don’t think of this as a task or burden think of it as an extra game to play, a diversion, an amusement...that only has to save your life once to have been really good use of time.

[SailSonoma]

The trick to figuring out the fairlead/car position is to set it, trim the sail in, and then slowly luff up. If the top of the sail breaks before the bottom, then you need to move the car forward. If the bottom breaks before the top, then you move it aft. When you luff up, the whole leading edge of the sail (luff) should break at the same time.

Once you have that, remember to move the car aft when the wind comes up to de-power the jib if the boat feels over powered

[ColinIOM]

Hi Mr B,
I am impressed you have sailed over 3000 miles and can’t really sail. I agree with another post on here who lists the reasons to be able to Beat to windward, again, I agree, the main reason is safety, your life may very well depend on it.

Cats don't sail as close to the wind as a mono hull (Dinghy or keelboat) but the theory is the same, you mentioned 30 degrees of the wind, I'm not sure where you are measuring that from because if you were at 30 degrees of the wind ( off the bow) then your sails would almost certainly be backed or at the very least, filling on the wrong side. From your pictures, you look nearer 70- 90 degrees off. A cruising Cat I think would be doing well to get to 60 degrees.

My advice would be to take a weeks dinghy sailing course, they are not expensive, you would have great fun and learn the basics. All sailing is the same, but can take a lifetime to perfect, you are not looking for perfection just the basics.
BTW, I also agree it would not be wise to try and sail into a harbour or marina, that takes a lot of skill not to end up damaging your or worse, someone else's pride and joy.
Good luck
Colin

[Mr B]

Originally Posted by KC375

Let me suggest four reasons to work on your ability to get the most sailing performance from your boat.
1. Safety. When you really really need to get up wind from where you are...that will be when your engine fails...clawing yourself off a lee shore in a surprise storm is not the time to learn to sail to windward.
2. Fun. As you learn how to get the most out of your sails you may well start to have fun doing it – an amusing extra thing on long passages – you don’t need to become obsessive compulsive, just a bit more attuned.
3. Passage times. As you become more adept you might find an extra half knot or a knot...that adds up over long passages.
4. Economy. As you get more comfortable with your sails you may find you choose to motor a bit less.
Non of that is to suggest you should make a habit of beating to weather in heavy seas pounding yourself senseless...but having the ability to that might just save your life.
There are plenty of vids and books on how to...probably better than one off advice on this thread. There isn’t a single right setting for a single wind angle. You will need to adjust as wind speed changes and as wind sheer changes (as you go up your sail the wind angle changes so you need some twist to get maximum drive from your sail).
I’m partial to Bethwaite’s High Performance Sailing but I’m sure there are a bunch of others.
Find your chosen “source” of info, make sure you have working instruments – includes a bunch of tell tales in a bunch of places, wind instruments, knot meter etc. Then go out and apply your learning while watching to see what increases boat speed.
Don’t think of this as a task or burden think of it as an extra game to play, a diversion, an amusement...that only has to save your life once to have been really good use of time.

A bit of extra info, My total sailing experience is 3 months full time live aboard, 3000 Nmiles included,
When I bought my boat in Fiji, I could not sail to save myself,
I had no idea on how all the instruments worked or even how to turn them on,

The sails were to me, Bits of rag on a very nice motor boat, A 34 foot Catamaran,

A day and a half with the P/O and 3 trips to Fiji from Mololo Island, 12 Nmiles away, and I was on my own,
6 weeks later, I sailed it to Australia from Fiji, Single handed, Learning on the way,
Im a fifty year motor boat driver, Sailing a boat, Zilch,

Plan B, was to drive the boat home on the diesel at 7 knots, Island hopping for fuel,
I left Fiji with 750 Nmiles of diesel on board, If I couldnt sail it,
All I needed to do that was a compass,
But this boat came with all the Bells and whistles,

I sailed during the day, Then into the pub at night where the professional world sailors told me what I was doing wrong or right, A lot of laughs, But I didnt get any wrong info,
It reminded them of when they first started out sailing also,
Totally on the Genoa only,

I was in Fiji two weeks before I took the cover off the Mainsail and tried it out,
WOW, That was an eye opener, It had ropes hanging out of every where,
One rope for up, and one rope for pulling it back along the boom, To tighten it,
The others, A tangled heap on the deck, Hahahahaha, Duhhhhh,

That was 7 years ago, Ive spent that time rebuilding my boat up from scratch with two new beefed up hulls, From getting wrecked at anchor in a very violent storm that threw me up onto the rocks on the beach,
Currently, Im doing shake down cruises to make sure my boat is 100 % seaworthy before I take off around Australia,
I proved its capability 3 weeks ago in a violent storm in Bass Straight,
3 days of pleasant weather forecast,

Then 3 hours into Bass Straight, I get a severe wind warning of winds in excess of 35 knots,
They were in excess of 35 knots, and a very violent ocean,

Im Relearning to sail my boat, I even forgot to put my centreboards down a bit to make it sail straight, They make a hell of a difference in sailing my boat,

1/ Clogged filters, So no motor, Which way to put the Genoa up quickly, and sail away from the pier I was about to go under,
The girl on board was on watch while I was in the locker cleaning the filters,
She said, We are getting close to the pier,
So I sailed off and found some shallow water to anchor and fix the motor,
I have just repaired the drive shaft which also packed it in,
This sail was to try out the new drive shaft and the realigning of the motor to the drive leg, It wasnt even close beforehand, Thats why it broke,

The tide was in, So plenty of depth all over the bay, So I will try up wind sailing,
I had about 5 miles each way,
My first time, ever doing that,
Shame you cant see the telltales on the Genoa, That would have given you all a better idea on setting the Genoa for me,

Ive learnt a lot, even from the few posts on this thread,
My terminology on what the ropes and sails are called, are Zilch, Im learning,
So if you want to be a grammar nazi on terminology, Go elsewhere,

But thank you to those that are helping, I appreciate it very much,

The chances of me being caught on a Lee shore are very slim, As I prefer to head out into the open ocean, where Lee shores or any shores are non existant,

3/ over 100's of miles in a straight line, I got one knot extra on the mainsail in every position, Using the GPS for speed, As a cruiser, one knot extra was not worth the trouble of putting the main sail up,

4/ Exactly what Im doing now, Practising what Im learning,

Cheers, Brian,

[PineyWoodsPete]

I've put a few thousand miles on a Gemini 34 a few years back in a lifetime of sailing - turned 80 last week!

First of all, in going to windward put your leeward hull centerboard all the way down. Otherwise you're making about as much to leeward as ahead. Position your genoa block and trim to sails as has been outlined previously. The Gemini can actually make good pretty well to windward with good technique!

Don't even think of trying to dock under sail - have it all down before entering the harbor. In docking the cat, if a beam wind is the problem, having both boards down will help limit your side-slip some. Conversely, if there's a beam current of any strength, boards up.

In the ultimate bad docking situation with wind and current 90 deg. against you, backing up to the dock or into the slip may be the only controllable answer, allowing your crew to step off the rear scoop with a midship spring line which, after cleating, you can motor forward or reverse so as to let the line tension and pull you into the dock. Leave it idling in gear until bow and stern lines secured.

Good luck!
Pete

[Mr B]

Originally Posted by ColinIOM

Hi Mr B,
I am impressed you have sailed over 3000 miles and can’t really sail. I agree with another post on here who lists the reasons to be able to Beat to windward, again, I agree, the main reason is safety, your life may very well depend on it.

Cats don't sail as close to the wind as a mono hull (Dinghy or keelboat) but the theory is the same, you mentioned 30 degrees of the wind, I'm not sure where you are measuring that from because if you were at 30 degrees of the wind ( off the bow) then your sails would almost certainly be backed or at the very least, filling on the wrong side. From your pictures, you look nearer 70- 90 degrees off. A cruising Cat I think would be doing well to get to 60 degrees.

My advice would be to take a weeks dinghy sailing course, they are not expensive, you would have great fun and learn the basics. All sailing is the same, but can take a lifetime to perfect, you are not looking for perfection just the basics.
BTW, I also agree it would not be wise to try and sail into a harbour or marina, that takes a lot of skill not to end up damaging your or worse, someone else's pride and joy.
Good luck
Colin

Hi Colin,
I was using a protractor for the degrees, Just a guess, I was down to one knot heading into the wind,
It wasnt very efficient, So I moved the boat around a bit more, As per Piccys,
Your 70 Degrees is more like my 30 degrees, Just using a different point from where you measure from,

I do get battered heading into the wind, I use the motor into the wind on the nose,
Going north, I was losing my davits over board as the welds had broken off,
I needed to get to port as quickly as I could, If I lost it, It was going to take the backstay off the mast with it,
7 knots on the motor, 4 knots going south on the current, Screaming head wind and 4 metre seas on the nose, I was going backwards 1.5 knots on the GPS,
So I turned around and went to a port further south,


I did have a 14 foot Paper Tiger, That I learnt the basics from on my local lake,
But I had more fun pitch poling that one and being hurled thru the air when the bow dug in, It was very over powered, , 20 foot mast, It was a fun boat,
But I did learn to make the boat go where I wanted it too, That was enough for me, The finer points of sailing, I just wasnt interested in,

20 miles or more off shore where I normally sail, I run before the wind, My boat is flat and level and very comfortable,
I keep it under 10 knots, So I dont break things by going faster,

Cheers, Brian,

[Mr B]

Originally Posted by PineyWoodsPete

I've put a few thousand miles on a Gemini 34 a few years back in a lifetime of sailing - turned 80 last week!

First of all, in going to windward put your leeward hull centerboard all the way down. Otherwise you're making about as much to leeward as ahead. Position your genoa block and trim to sails as has been outlined previously. The Gemini can actually make good pretty well to windward with good technique!

Don't even think of trying to dock under sail - have it all down before entering the harbor. In docking the cat, if a beam wind is the problem, having both boards down will help limit your side-slip some. Conversely, if there's a beam current of any strength, boards up.

In the ultimate bad docking situation with wind and current 90 deg. against you, backing up to the dock or into the slip may be the only controllable answer, allowing your crew to step off the rear scoop with a midship spring line which, after cleating, you can motor forward or reverse so as to let the line tension and pull you into the dock. Leave it idling in gear until bow and stern lines secured.

Good luck!
Pete

Thanks, Pete,

The wind was 90 degrees and very strong,
Thinking about it, It would have been easier to back it in to the dock,
I will do that next time,
I did have the Lee side board down coming in,

But I have been keeping my boards up as Im in 3 feet of water at low tide, Even the rudders drag on the bottom,
The Gemini sits on top of the water and gets blown sideways very easy in strong winds with no boards down,
It would also be nice to have some one on board to handle a line when Im docking, But I dont have that luxury and there are no bystanders to throw a line too,

Sailing it into the dock, Hahahahaha I wont even go there, Hahahaha,

Cheers, Brian,

[Ssas5342]

Hey Brian,

I have a Seawind 1000 cat and like you I’m not a super experienced sailor. I sail upwind often! Mainly because where I want to go to get shelter for the night is upwind. I find having the headsail cars set in the middle and the sail wound down tight allows me to point into the wind really well. I can make adjustments from the helm when required. The mainsail car is set slightly to the leeward side depending on what tack I’m on. Again, the mainsail is wound in fairly tight.
I’ve also joined the local cruising yacht club and race every second weekend. Awesome way to learn more and I’m slowly catching the fleet!
Good luck and fair winds.

[ColinIOM]

Hi Brian,
When we talk about angle off the wind, take the centre line of the boat the bow being 0 degrees, so a fair mono hull will sail at around 45 degrees either side of that, (a pure racing boat will maybe get to maybe 40 degrees or less, where a long keel cruising yacht may be best at 50-55 degrees.)

So go out on your cruising cat on a fair day, (not to much wind or swell) find the angle of the true wind, use your compass or (in your pics, the GPS has a compass rose) motor slowly (1 or 2 knots or you will be seeing the apparent wind) turn straight into the wind to be sure, then work out 70 degrees either side of that, then turn the boat heading on that 70 deg course (engine off ) sheeting in your sails at the same time. I think you should try with the Genoa alone first (although it will sail much better with the mainsail up as well)
Just to be clear, in none of your pictures are you sheeted in far enough (although a couple of pics you are getting closer) you should look for some pictures of other boats hard on the wind to give you a target.
Once you are sailing on that 70deg course, play with your sheets, out a bit, then in a bit (I'm sure you will have an autopilot) and let the boat sail for 5 or 10 mins after each adjustment to see if it gets better or is it worse? Once you have tried that for a while, try adjusting your coarse in say 5deg less, so around 65 deg, and do the same experiments with the sails out a bit, in a bit. Again, once you are happy, bring the boat angle in closer and keep doing so until it’s obvious that you are now slowing down and go back to the optimal settings from earlier.

Now if you haven't had the main up, now is the time, have the boom around 10 to 15 deg of the centreline of the boat, have a small camber (curve) in the foot along the boom, and have the kicker in quite tight.
For starters, you want some twist in the leach, so if you stand under the boom and look up the sail, you will see it twists away from the centreline, some twist is good, but not to much, mainsail twist is adjusted by the boom position, the Genoa twist is adjusted by the position of the track cars on the deck. So again try adjusting the mainsail in or out, more twist, less twist and see how it performs.
Just be aware of the “apparent” wind, when you are running downwind with the wind from astern, in a 15 knot true wind, if the boat is doing 5 knots, then the “apparent” wind over the deck is only 10 knots. If you turn the boat around and start sailing into it at your 60-70deg, that same 15 knot wind will now be 20 over the deck if the boat is doing 5 knots, it may well be time to reef.


If you try what I am suggesting, you will be sailing to windward, from there, it is just time to keep adjusting the sheets because the wind is never consistent in either speed nor direction, so if after your practice days, you find the boat is best at say 60 deg, and you are sailing a compass coarse, just be aware of the wind moving around, so to keep you 60 degrees you may have to keep adjusting your course.

I hope you try this, its well worth while, and in the case of engine failure (contaminated fuel!)
having these skills may well save the boat and you neck, plus its great fun and free.

All the best
Colin

[Davy J]

As a fellow Gemini owner, you really need the main up to sail uphill. Also, anytime we are just north of 90 degrees for any length of time the leeward board goes down.

My boat has adjustable cars on the traveler track for the mainsheet, many Gem's I've been on don't have that. However, it makes tweaks to the main very easy.

One other thing, sometimes putting a reef in the main, while heading upwind will actually increase boat speed.

You will just have to get used to the pounding...............

[Jim Cate]

Brian, just a thought: you have mentioned planning sailing clear around the Australian continent as your goal. If this is true, there will likely be long stretches where you will need to go to windward, slamming or not, so please do start some serious efforts towards learning how to do so effectively.

And getting used to using the mainsail is crucial to that goal.

"nuff said.

Jim

[Mr B]

Originally Posted by Davy J

As a fellow Gemini owner, you really need the main up to sail uphill. Also, anytime we are just north of 90 degrees for any length of time the leeward board goes down.

My boat has adjustable cars on the traveler track for the mainsheet, many Gem's I've been on don't have that. However, it makes tweaks to the main very easy.

One other thing, sometimes putting a reef in the main, while heading upwind will actually increase boat speed.

You will just have to get used to the pounding...............

My Gem has the adjustable cars on the traveler track,
I have adjustable cars on the sides for the Genoa as well,
The Genoa is all run from the cockpit,

For the extra knot the main gave me, Its not worth the effort to put it up,
Over hundreds of miles in a straight line, I tried the main and Genoa in every position possible,
Using the GPS for speed variations, And different wind directions,


I have a 150 Genoa, It gives me most points of sailing, Except up wind,
I have the boom tied off securely as it has my jackline tied under it,
Not that I need to go out on deck any way, Except to drop the anchor,

It was a once off because I could do it, Plenty of open bay to sail in, just to try it out,
Nice constant 10 knot wind,

It was a quick shake down cruise, to make sure my Autopilot was working again with the new belt installed, Perfect,

My new Uni joint on the motor drive leg was working properly, And the motor was lined up straight and no vibrations, Its perfect now,
Two new engine mounts, The old ones were stuffed and not bolted in,
The motor was running out of line by about 3 mm, Thats why the bolts snapped in the Uni Joint to the drive leg,,
I even ran the prop with the motor unbolted, Smooth as,

Making sure I had all the crap out of the diesel tanks and the filters were not getting clogged again, Ive cured that,

I have also put the filters and fuel pump in the locker in the cockpit where its easy to get at, I installed an OFF-ON switch in there as well, So the injector pump is primed before I hit the switch for the motor, It starts first go every time now,
Best thing I ever did to my boat,
Standing on my head on the transom to clean a clogged filter, Why the hell they put it in there, I dont know,

I installed a bracket on my bottom step so I can drive the boat with the outboard as well, Its only 4 HP, but it will get me out of trouble if the main engine fails again,
It sits on the deck rail on a bracket when Im travelling,

I also put two Led light bars on my top spreader, It lights up the ocean at night like day light for about 100 yards in front of the boat,
I tried them out coming into Western port bay in a violent storm at 2-30 am, From Bass Straight, I didnt like what I saw so I turned them off again, Hahahaha That was scary, Hahaha


I doubt if I will ever sail upwind again, If I do, I will motor it,
I hate the pounding, so I avoid it where I can,
I have plenty of time, So I will wait a couple of days till the wind goes where I want to go, Easy Peasy,

Cheers, Brian,