Furling in high winds?

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Wilyum

Why cant you just motor into the wind?

Yes, that would be another option. I was thinking of sailing options, but when the shyte hits the fan, you do whatever you need to do.

It's generally just better to sail with both main and foresails up. Some boats do better than others with just one, and each boat is different. On our cutter, we're better off with a deeply reefed main and staysail, with the genny (yankee) completely furled. The point is, you want to remain balanced.

Unless you're heading downwind for long runs and can balance with two foresails, or are dealing with little wind at all, a single foresail is rarely a good idea.

[waterman46]

Yes, better to have some mainsail up, but hopefully the main would have been reefed ahead of time. If caught in gusts suddenly with full main, then the main must be quickly reefed and that's difficult in a breeze but must be practiced to where it is second nature.
Back to the situation, OP wrote ' I was not strong enough to move the furling line at all, even after releasing the genny sheet.' Why didn't he just put the reefing line on a jib winch? Head to a broad reach and without the main to speed the boat I would start the engine and run as fast as possible on that very broad reach to reduce apparent wind.

[rhubstuff]

I notice that the OP is from Detroit, probably sailing on Lake St. Clair, in which case it may not be an option to just "head downwind," because within a very few minutes he would be in Canadian waters (not to mention on a lee shore in a shallow lake) and Canada is not open yet. You could claim force majeure, but what then? I second the notion that the mainsail should be the first sail up and the last to come down. With the main deeply reefed, motorsailing through a brief storm is an excellent way to ride it out. Sheet her in hard, half throttle, head upwind and keep the bow quartering the waves. The engine will provide control and the reefed main will provide stability.

[zstine]

This is yet another example of why hank-on sails are safer than furling. If his sail was hank-on, releasing the halyard is a pretty sure bet of having that sail come down and stay (mostly) out of the water. Furlers can be a hazard as this post demonstrates.

I do not recommend winching a furling line. The furling systems on a 30 to 40 ft boat are not designed to take many hundreds of pounds of tension while operating. The forestay is not designed to take many of hundreds of pounds of point load a foot up from the stem. Winching a furling line can lead to a dismasting disaster! Jimmy Cornell's 70+ ft arctic cruiser tank may have been designed to winch in furling lines... That doesn't mean you should on your boat.

[Kd9truck]

I always hoist the main first and strike it last. I see a lot of locals just getting the Genoa up and making lines in the horbor nice and relaxed.
Until it’s not
I learned to sail the main as a single sail option, because hoisting the main with the Genoa out creates problems, excessive wear and stress on das boot. The light wind days I may put a reef in the main to let the Genoa fill over the top of the reefed main or go wing on wing with a boom preventer (always).
I have reefed the Genoa under load pinching to the wind to depower with an electric wench handle (dewalt right angle drill) in less than 30 seconds in similar conditions.
As stated by several other posts a balanced sail plan is always necessary.
And remember the mistakes you make cost you more than the ones you learn from others. You paid for them learn from them, and be smitten with your self when you manage to avert the same sinario.
Cheers

[kayakerChuck]

Great discussion! I have a LOT to learn! This is my first "bigger" boat.

Here's my thinking at the time. Hopefully my thinking in the future will be better.

We were out for a leisurely sail. No nastiness was forecast, other than a possibility of thunderstorms. I have been boating in this area for 50+ years (how did I get old!), mostly on Windsurfers (in front of thunderstorms, because that's about the only time we get decent wind in the summer), and in kayaks. Also assorted power, sail, and other toys. I'm pretty familiar with the area.

My boat has a big genoa and a relatively small main. She's new to me, and a big step up from our O'day 22. She does sail pretty nicely with just the genny, usually with still a bit of weather helm. During our "adventure", I felt in full directional control at all times. We had about 4 miles to the lee shore, and about 1 mile of room on either side of us. The entire lake is shallow, so anchoring is an option, if I can avoid the weed beds.

I was flying only the genny because it's easy- especially when basically single handing. Pull one string to deploy/trim, pull one string to furl, all from the cockpit. The main is a bit more involved, and I did not want to leave the cockpit unless absolutely necessary, even for just a casual sail. If I was flying the main, it would have been reefed to the first reef point- far too much sail for the conditions that found us- and I don't think I could have reefed more, or even doused the sail. I don't think 150 lb me could pull it down at all in those conditions. If I was flying the main, I don't think I would attempt turning downwind. I think we'd have been knocked down while broadside, and would have had WAAAY more power than was safe once pointed downwind. Please critique my thinking here!

What scares me the most is I did keep a good eye on the weather, & saw and prepared for approaching rain. I didn't see, or didn't recognize, any sign of wind or storm. The clouds were fuzzy, low to the water, and quite thin. My guess is the top of the clouds was no more than 1000' above the water, with a bit of haze above. The next time I see this, I'll prepare for the worst!

If I had seen this coming, I would have started the motor, secured all sails, and anchored with the motor running. Winds that strong here are rare and usually last no more than 20 minutes. 15' of water, 20 miles of fetch. It probably would not be comfortable, but I think we'd be safe. Does this seem reasonable?

I love the idea of a rope clutch for the furling line. The boat is currently set up with the furling line going into a turn block at the base of a pushpit rail, then to a cleat. I'm considering making that line long enough to reach either of my genoa winches if needed. Hopefully that might be enough insurance so I recognize what is happening with enough time to make intelligent decisions and prepare.

[Kd9truck]

Definitely do that rope clutch, within reach of, and in line with a wench. I have modified every vessel I have owned in some way to be cockpit operated. I single hand 95% of the time,and yes I am counting times that I have a cockpit with spectators. That sounds harsh I don’t mean it that way, it can be harder to sail with the inexperienced and the “conditions intimidated” then by your self.
I had a similar situation happen to me 2 summers ago. A storm that was not predicted bloomed when it hit water (the Long Island sound) and expanded exponentially in minutes. After the knockdown with full sail, I struck the 140% Genoa and the mast left its parallel position above the water to about a 56° angle and the vessel came up into the wind and I was able to use the down haul from the cockpit to strike the main. I had debated removing the down haul as it had never proven it’s need on this vessel, I am so glad I did not.
I learned a lot that day, I am fortunate to be able to have had that teaching experience ��. I think one of the most under rated aspects of sailing is the order in which we sequence each specific task. Most of the time we don’t not appreciate the order until something is done out of order, and then sometimes we pay. Sometimes experience is doing the wrong thing 100x and getting away with it, I can definitely speak to that lol. Cheers

[redneckrob]

Originally Posted by zstine

This is yet another example of why hank-on sails are safer than furling. If his sail was hank-on, releasing the halyard is a pretty sure bet of having that sail come down and stay (mostly) out of the water. Furlers can be a hazard as this post demonstrates.

I do not recommend winching a furling line. The furling systems on a 30 to 40 ft boat are not designed to take many hundreds of pounds of tension while operating. The forestay is not designed to take many of hundreds of pounds of point load a foot up from the stem. Winching a furling line can lead to a dismasting disaster! Jimmy Cornell's 70+ ft arctic cruiser tank may have been designed to winch in furling lines... That doesn't mean you should on your boat.

That's nice, but 90%+ of cruising boats have furling headsails and exactly 0% of those are going to switch to hank-on sails so it's a bit pointless. I'm also unaware of any fatal mishaps attributed to furlers that would have been prevented by a hank-on sail or any instances of a forestay parting while furling despite the overwhelming prevalence of these supposedly dangerous furling systems....do you have any specific examples to share?

[Training Wheels]

Originally Posted by Kd9truck

Definitely do that rope clutch, within reach of, and in line with a wench. Cheers

Yeah, but a wench can be expensive!

[belizesailor]

Originally Posted by Sailmonkey

Turn down and run with the wind to ease furling the sail if there’s sea room. Running eases the load on the sail.

...and reduces aparent wind.

[belizesailor]

Originally Posted by Training Wheels

Yeah, but a wench can be expensive!

Especially when it comes time to upgrade! [emoji6]

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by redneckrob

That's nice, but 90%+ of cruising boats have furling headsails and exactly 0% of those are going to switch to hank-on sails so it's a bit pointless. I'm also unaware of any fatal mishaps attributed to furlers that would have been prevented by a hank-on sail or any instances of a forestay parting while furling despite the overwhelming prevalence of these supposedly dangerous furling systems....do you have any specific examples to share?

Sort of to his point, I had my furler line come out recently. I had just sailed 7 hours at the end of a 4 day outing where I sailed everyday to a different anchorage and was tired physically and hadn't slept well. Winds were about 18-20 knots.

I sailed in that last day close to my creek but was pushed passed it due to wind and tide. I was also getting close to a low bridge and land (about 800 yards from the bridge and 500 from land) so I decided to bring in the jib and motor or motor sail in. That's when the furling line came out and the sail started flailing.

No big deal really but the tack was harder and I was ready to get in.

I was sailing singlehanded and it was work getting that sail down. It's a tight fit for the sail in my double slotted furler.

If I'd had hank on sails, it would have been a normal thing, but that jib hadn't been down in 2 years so it was a different deal.

[Hoodsail]

In hi winds, 30-40kts (not the winds you describe), while single-handed, my port gennie sheet fractured the strataglass of my dodger. Canvas folks said they had never seen this...My mistake was to head directly into the wind, genoa flogging like crazy violently throwing sheets about, & sounding like a gun shot when the sheet made contact with the dodger canvas. I have learned to gradually head to wind, while simultaneously sheeting in and partially furling the headsail. Then heading up a bit more, furl in a bit, keeping light tension on the sheet, and so on until gennie is furled w/ 2-3 wraps. And I use my small, self-tailing winch on the furling line, always aware of too much resistance (determining too much resistance just came w/ experience with the boat). I would be hard-pressed to do this w/o a self-tailer as I am steering, tailing the genoa sheet, while furling the genoa...its a balancing "act" that requires a bit of practice. thnks

[redneckrob]

Originally Posted by thomm225

Sort of to his point, I had my furler line come out recently. I had just sailed 7 hours at the end of a 4 day outing where I sailed everyday to a different anchorage and was tired physically and hadn't slept well. Winds were about 18-20 knots.

I sailed in that last day close to my creek but was pushed passed it due to wind and tide. I was also getting close to a low bridge and land (about 800 yards from the bridge and 500 from land) so I decided to bring in the jib and motor or motor sail in. That's when the furling line came out and the sail started flailing.

No big deal really but the tack was harder and I was ready to get in.

I was sailing singlehanded and it was work getting that sail down. It's a tight fit for the sail in my double slotted furler.

If I'd had hank on sails, it would have been a normal thing, but that jib hadn't been down in 2 years so it was a different deal.

Now imagine setting and dousing a hank on sail every time you single hand. There's a reason furlers were invented and everyone uses them. Maintain them and they're safer and far easier in pretty much every circumstance. If you're ever tempted to go hank on for safety reasons, find a racer that still uses them and let them let you try to handle it on a pitching foredeck singlehanded. All but the most ardent luddites will be quickly convinced that they decrease, not increase safety, especially when single handed.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by redneckrob

Now imagine setting and dousing a hank on sail every time you single hand. There's a reason furlers were invented and everyone uses them. Maintain them and they're safer and far easier in pretty much every circumstance. If you're ever tempted to go hank on for safety reasons, find a racer that still uses them and let them let you try to handle it on a pitching foredeck singlehanded. All but the most ardent luddites will be quickly convinced that they decrease, not increase safety, especially when single handed.

Not saying I want to go hank on, just seeing the guys point.

Plus I was a racer before and put the sails up and down every time as I didn't have a furler but that was on beach cats (which I raced for 15 years on 4 different boats) and I had several pitch poles because I couldn't get my sails down in high winds.

Luckily, I could get the spinnaker in the sock though so sometimes I could stay upright but when you are racing you cannot alter course much or you lose