Collision avoidance at night

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Standing on is NOTHING like "holding your ground". Standing on is giving the other vessel control of the crossing. It is fundamental to how collision avoidance works, and you must do it. You stop doing it when you have reasonable doubts that the other vessel is going to take up your offer to take control of the crossing, and resolve it. But you are obliged to give him a chance. That's how it works.

Again, you are under the assumption that
A) someone is actually on watch
And
B) they care or know about colregs.

Originally Posted by Kian

Carefully read the sentence before the bit you bolded. It's talking about what the give-way vessel must do, and said to act "as if" the stand on vessel had a right. Meaning that is just an easy way to think of the situation according to whoever wrote that explanation. It is not the actual content of the rules.

The stand on vessel doesn't have the right to stay on course, it has an obligation to do so unless the other vessel doesn't appear to be taking action (and you might want to blow 5 short bursts of you horn first if you don't understand our she with their intentions). Everyone involved has the responsibility to avoid a collision, and the way to do so is for one person to maintain course and the other to maneuver behind them.

Again, much of the world does not play by colreg rules.
They wouldn't know what 5 short blasts meant even if they could hear them.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

Again, you are under the assumption that
A) someone is actually on watch
And
B) they care or know about colregs.. .

What, you're going to assume the opposite? No, you stand on -- as you are REQUIRED to do -- only until you have reason to think that the other vessel has A) no one on watch or B) doesn't know or care about the Rules. THEN, you maneuver. And all that is in compliance with the Rules.

Originally Posted by Simi 60

. . Again, much of the world does not play by colreg rules. They wouldn't know what 5 short blasts meant even if they could hear them.

Really? Not in this part of the world. Not just about any single commercial mariner, and not anyone who has been through the RYA courses. There are a few ignorant people of course, but in this part of the world, a very small minority.

And in any case, what are you saying? That some people don't follow the Rules, therefore you're just going to ignore them yourself?

[Kian]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

Again, much of the world does not play by colreg rules.
They wouldn't know what 5 short blasts meant even if they could hear them.

I like the 5 short blasts because they're pretty universal. Even if they never read the colregs, they should draw attention to your boat and if they still look clueless and you decide to take action yourself, they likely won't steer into you once they know you're there

[Tillsbury]

Don’t forget that you cannot assume they have the same wind as you. I was sailing up a harbour entrance a few weeks back, with another boat no further than 300m behind me. The wind varied from 10kts to 20kts, but was from anywhere between the port beam and close hauled starboard, changing every few hundred metres. There were some interesting photo opportunities as I watched him sail along directly behind me in my wake while we were on opposite tacks, swapping as required up the channel.

A boat on a fixed bearing to you could easily be on starboard tack wherever he is.

[mlydon]

it seems a bit of a conundrum....

let's say wind due north....
if you're on a hard port tack, you're pointing say 45 (wind over your port), you are showing RED to the other boat
if he's on starboard he basically HAS to be headed west (if he's headed east, he'd be on port tack just like you)
while he's headed west, he's showing you is port side, RED light.......

so he's GOT to be on port tack (or run, or whatever, but PORT), and is either paralleling you, or could be coming down on you (could be headed due east or futher south to your 45).

Technically, you're the stand-on. I don't get why they assume you can't determine his tack.

Please enlighten me, O great wits of CF......

Matt

[Tillsbury]

Originally Posted by mlydon

it seems a bit of a conundrum....

let's say wind due north....
if you're on a hard port tack, you're pointing say 45 (wind over your port), you are showing RED to the other boat
if he's on starboard he basically HAS to be headed west (if he's headed east, he'd be on port tack just like you)
while he's headed west, he's showing you is port side, RED light.......

so he's GOT to be on port tack (or run, or whatever, but PORT), and is either paralleling you, or could be coming down on you (could be headed due east to your 45).

Technically, you're the stand-on. I don't get why they assume you can determine his tack.

Please enlighten me, O great wits of CF......

Matt

If you were heading 045 and he was heading west, it’s unlikely you’re on a closing bearing unless you’re approaching some very extreme tidal race. So your visualisation of the situation isn’t correct.

As Dockhead said, it’s a question to test your understanding of a specific rule (assume starboard if you can’t tell).

[dokondr]

Originally Posted by Kian

Something that I found strange in the answer is the suggestion to tack, when usually it is required to turn to starboard. I would like to reread that section, since as you say, the other vessel in a port tack would be upwind and would then also believe themselves to be the give way vessel.

Our boat is on a port tack and can not determine the tack of another vessel, so we have to follow the rule 12(a)(iii), as Dockhead wrote:

And the Rule about which this exam question is all about is 12(a)(iii):
(iii). if a vessel with the wind on the port side sees a vessel to windward and cannot determine with certainty whether the other vessel has the wind on the port or on the starboard side, she shall keep out of the way of the other.

A quick tack is the right action to take -- not faffing with VHF or searchlights. The Rules are clear about what to do.

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by mlydon

so he's GOT to be on port tack (or run, or whatever, but PORT), and is either paralleling you, or could be coming down on you (could be headed due east or futher south to your 45).

No he doesn't. He could be running near downwind or very broad reach on stbd, and still be in the 45º arc between your bow and the wind.

[dokondr]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

No he doesn't. He could be running near downwind or very broad reach on stbd, and still be in the 45º arc between your bow and the wind.

Agree, thanks, now I see..

[mlydon]

lodestone - that makes sense - I can picture it.....thx

matt

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Really? Not in this part of the world. Not just about any single commercial mariner, and not anyone who has been through the RYA courses. There are a few ignorant people of course, but in this part of the world, a very small minority.

Seems there are some



Boat Collisions Denmark area

Originally Posted by Dockhead

And in any case, what are you saying? That some people don't follow the Rules, therefore you're just going to ignore them yourself?

Where did I say I would ignore the rules?

What I said is I would avoid collision
For me, that has been treat everyone like they are trying to kill me and preemptively, not be in a position where I am left wondering or needing to make last minute adjustments.
Or in the case of the pictures provided, last second adjustments.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

. . . Where did I say I would ignore the rules?

What I said is I would avoid collision
For me, that has been treat everyone like they are trying to kill me and preemptively, not be in a position where I am left wondering or needing to make last minute adjustments.
Or in the case of the pictures provided, last second adjustments.

Well, you said something like simple, avoid collision, end of story. As in, don't bother to analyze who is stand on and who is give way, because that concerns (nonexistent) "rights".



But if we all misunderstood that, and if you are saying after all that you would NOT ignore the Rules, you would stand on if required, but keeping a sharp watch and preparing for the worst -- then we have no disagreement.

[hamburking]

The question never said the other boat was a sailboat, and it does not matter.

Steady bearing...change course.

If it were heading away from you, then the white stern light would be seen.

Just remember these poems:

If to starboard red appears, its your duty to keep clear!
Green to green, red to red, perfect safety, go ahead!
If two lights you see ahead, starboard your wheel and show your red!

It does not matter that you are on a sailboat...you must avoid collision. Considerations of point of sail, or starboard tack over port, are only for sailboat races, not COLREGS.

To be clear, your boat actually has the right of way, and the other boat should "starboard their wheel and show their red". But my experience is that I'm in a little sailboat and the other guy is a mega ton freighter who likely can't even see me...so I'm going to turn and get the hell out of there!

[RSB333]

When all three lights I see ahead,
I turn to Starboard and show my red
Green to green, Red to Red
Perfect safety, go ahead!

But if to starboard a Red should appear
It is my duty to keep clear
To act as judgement says is proper
to Port or Starboard, Back or Stop her

And if upon my Port is seen
a Steamer's starboard light of Green
I hold my course and watch to see
that Green to port keeps clear of me

Both in safety and in doubt
always keep a good lookout
In danger, with no room to turn,
Ease her, stop her, Go Astern

[StuM]

There's so much incorrect and dangerous thinking here that it's disturbing to think about being on the same ocean as you.

Originally Posted by hamburking

The question never said the other boat was a sailboat, and it does not matter.

What other type of boat can legally only have a green light visible.
It does matter, if it is a power boat, you are stand on.

Steady bearing...change course.

Not if you are the stand on vessel.

Just remember these poems:

If to starboard red appears, its your duty to keep clear!
Green to green, red to red, perfect safety, go ahead!
If two lights you see ahead, starboard your wheel and show your red!

Over simplistic and wrong in many situations.

It does not matter that you are on a sailboat...you must avoid collision. Considerations of point of sail, or starboard tack over port, are only for sailboat races, not COLREGS.

100% false and very dangerous thinking.

To be clear, your boat actually has the right of way,

No such thing and use of the term results in dangerous misconceptions.

and the other boat should "starboard their wheel and show their red".

thereby steering towards you and increasing the danger of collision when you respond correctly?

But my experience is that I'm in a little sailboat and the other guy is a mega ton freighter who likely can't even see me...so I'm going to turn and get the hell out of there!

If it's a mega ton freighter, you will see more than just a green light!