Boat sinks in The Northwest Passage

[AndyEss]

Originally Posted by StuM

Trivia time. the "F" in this case is superfluous.

Good one, but steel goes through its Nil Ductility Temperature (NDT) at about -42 F.
Back in a previous lifetime I designed equipment to be used off of the polar ice cap north of Alaska and spent three seasons working off the ice pack. We used aluminum extensively because it only behaved better and better as it got colder. I never whacked a piece of steel to watch it shatter when it got as cold as -55 F (air temp, not wind chill)- we shut down outside operations at -40

[StuM]

Originally Posted by john61ct

But, what if they meant Kelvin?

I knew someone would fall for that

No ° symbol for kelvin (lower case "k"), it's just 40 K.


The units are "kelvins" unlike the other two where the unit names as "degrees Celsius" and "degrees Fahrenheit"

[AndyEss]

Originally Posted by newhaul

both are way off track of this thread

True - and not true.

I worked off of the polar ice pack north of Alaska in the early 1980's. Some years, there was no open water at all to bring in heavy industrial components to the Prudhoe Bay oilfields.
Now we have pleasure yachts sailing the NW passage. I was was on the 2017 BajaHaha and one Canadian boat was in the early stages of circumnavigating North America (via the Panama Canal).
Who in his right mind would have even thought of these things 20-40 years ago?
That boat that sank was there because there is now a certainty of open water along the north coast of North America over a length of time that allows passage before the next freeze up.
No ice breaker required.
While we boaters may now have a much greater portion of the globe to explore, it's valid to consider just why this phenomenon has happened only recently.
And if this activity is going to continue, safety issues to include extensive sea and pack ice better be added to our lexicon of pleasure boating.

[rmlarson1098]

Originally Posted by StuM

Trivia time. the "F" in this case is superfluous.

Exactly! I have such difficulty converting celsius to fahrenheit, with that one exception! -40 is -40, either way! Always makes me feel like a genius when in the tropics explaining to someone how cold it can actually get, say in NE Minnesota. Most folks that dwell where it's always warm don't believe, or can't conceive of water freezing to the point where you can walk, or drive a car on it.

[DeepFrz]

Originally Posted by AndyEss

True - and not true.


That boat that sank was there because there is now a certainty of open water along the north coast of North America over a length of time that allows passage before the next freeze up.

That is just not so. There is no certainty that the NW Passage will open.

[Snowpetrel]

Originally Posted by TeddyDiver

Steel becomes brittle in temperatures below -40 so it's not an issue with anything floating. Wintering in the ice might become an issue.

Teddy

It's not as cut and dry as that, different grades of steel perform very differently in cold conditions, and it's not a sudden dropoff but a slower degradation, typically in notch toughness. Certainly steel choice from a cold induced brittleness point of view is a big factor in ice class vessels, and LPG carriers. Traditionally Arctic D steel was often used.

On the AGW issue. It's pretty clear here in Tassie that the last 50-80 years have seen a fair bit of warming. Old pictures show the snow line vegetation far lower than currently is, and in the 18 years I have been here I've seen the snowline creep higher. Likewise with all the Antarctic scientists I have worked with have concerns.

The Anti AGW crowd changes it arguement so often its hard to keep up. From there is no warming, to there is warming but it's caused by something other than humans, and then onto its caused by us but we can't afford to do anything about it. Then some even go on to say warming will actually be good for humanity. Often the same person uses all four arguements in the same conversation.

Given the dollars involved with denying it historically its pretty clear how a huge amount of money flows into propaganda and quasi-science denying that there is problem in an attemt to continue business as usual. Look at the smoking and asbestos industries for examples of morally bankrupt practices.

[john61ct]

Yes studying to be a petroleum engineer nowadays is like saying you want to work for a tobacco company.

[Clamdigger]

Originally Posted by transmitterdan

There is no magic that will make a boat “pop up” out of the ice when it is pushed into the hull. The ice is jagged and creates many sharp high pressure points against the hull. The entire weight of the boat can end up impinging on jagged ice. It will cut the hull like a hot knife though butter. Ice breakers and other ships designed for Arctic seas have ridiculously thick hulls. It is fantasy to imagine a pleasure boat could be reinforced to survive getting encased in pack ice.

Sadly, the captain used the ice to destroy a perfectly good boat.

You may all want to read 'ICE!' by Tristan Jones when you are not sailing this Winter, or done arguing here, which ever comes first. Personally I think Spring will arrive after Winter, at which time it will warm and this thread will be revived,sadly, LOL I think?!

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by Snowpetrel

It's not as cut and dry as that, different grades of steel perform very differently in cold conditions, and it's not a sudden dropoff but a slower degradation, typically in notch toughness. Certainly steel choice from a cold induced brittleness point of view is a big factor in ice class vessels, and LPG carriers. Traditionally Arctic D steel was often used.

On the AGW issue. It's pretty clear here in Tassie that the last 50-80 years have seen a fair bit of warming. Old pictures show the snow line vegetation far lower than currently is, and in the 18 years I have been here I've seen the snowline creep higher. Likewise with all the Antarctic scientists I have worked with have concerns.

The Anti AGW crowd changes it arguement so often its hard to keep up. From there is no warming, to there is warming but it's caused by something other than humans, and then onto its caused by us but we can't afford to do anything about it. Then some even go on to say warming will actually be good for humanity. Often the same person uses all four arguements in the same conversation.

Given the dollars involved with denying it historically its pretty clear how a huge amount of money flows into propaganda and quasi-science denying that there is problem in an attemt to continue business as usual. Look at the smoking and asbestos industries for examples of morally bankrupt practices.

pm me your email and I will send you some papers that follow the money . Right to where it really goes.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by Snowpetrel

It's not as cut and dry as that, different grades of steel perform very differently in cold conditions, and it's not a sudden dropoff but a slower degradation, typically in notch toughness. Certainly steel choice from a cold induced brittleness point of view is a big factor in ice class vessels, and LPG carriers. Traditionally Arctic D steel was often used. .

wonder what steel they Spec'ed for in building those ice breaker LNG tankers that they are now using in the arctic.

[Clamdigger]

Originally Posted by hpeer

Anyone who believes the crap heard without checking out for themselves is playing with Fire. I’m no cc denier, but I do know that we are not there yet, and may not be for some time.

I don’t know, nor does anyone else here, that this really did or did not play into the sinking. So why don’t we just leave it alone.

A lot of boats have made it in the last few years, including a wooden cutter with the Capt, his wife, and two little girls. They got lucky.

Maybe folks reading about the last success rate has given folks it’s an easy thing to do. And maybe this capt truly knew the risks and maybe he didn’t.

I still think an Ovni would be a good choice for this mission and would have a better chance than normal of surviving. It’s not uncommon for boats to pop up in the ice when sealing. Not all do, but some.

Jimmy Cornell sailed his Garcia through the N W Passage with minimal challenges after multiple attempts. The Ovni brand is a sistership company to Garcia both very similiar designs. I had been aboard Adventura lV before she sailed on her successful passage, and she was built for All Oceans sailing, properly outfitted by Jimmy. I am sure I will be having a conversation with him about this mishap next month when we visit. He s probably discussing it over on his website, www.noonsite.com . Read his excellently written latest book, '200,000 Miles a Life of Adventure' for more insight into High Latitude sailing. Jimmy s a true Sea Cowboy who s ridden out more weather than most of us have read about!

[Snowpetrel]

Originally Posted by newhaul

wonder what steel they Spec'ed for in building those ice breaker LNG tankers that they are now using in the arctic.

http://www.antarctica.gov.au/magazin.../ship-of-steel

I am not sure what the current grades are, but this is interesting.

http://www.spartaengineering.com/eff...eel-equipment/

A lot of the LPG tankers use aluminium to help separate and insulate the cold LPG tanks from the steel hull.

It used to be a big problem with the old iron ships. And the early welded ships where the notch sensitivity was high on the older steels some 1970's and 80's ships used to have a rivetted crack arresting belt below the shear to prevent any cracks from spreading right around the hull. It is still something they design for on bigger ships, even with better steels and welding materials.

https://www.tf.uni-kiel.de/matwis/am...tr/s9_1_1.html

https://metallurgyandmaterials.wordp...ship-failures/

[StuM]

Originally Posted by Clamdigger

You may all want to read 'ICE!' by Tristan Jones when you are not sailing this Winter, or done arguing here, which ever comes first.

After which, read "Wayward Sailor: In Search of the Real Tristan Jones" to put ice into perspective

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by Snowpetrel

Ship of steel — Australian Antarctic Division

I am not sure what the current grades are, but this is interesting.

http://www.spartaengineering.com/eff...eel-equipment/

A lot of the LPG tankers use aluminium to help separate and insulate the cold LPG tanks from the steel hull.

It used to be a big problem with the old iron ships. And the early welded ships where the notch sensitivity was high on the older steels some 1970's and 80's ships used to have a rivetted crack arresting belt below the shear to prevent any cracks from spreading right around the hull. It is still something they design for on bigger ships, even with better steels and welding materials.

https://www.tf.uni-kiel.de/matwis/am...tr/s9_1_1.html

https://metallurgyandmaterials.wordp...ship-failures/

found it .they used grade E special steel plus a 7cm plate steel over cover.
https://www.ship-technology.com/proj...-lng-carriers/

[RaymondR]

Originally Posted by newhaul

pm me your email and I will send you some papers that follow the money . Right to where it really goes.

Yep, US$100 billion a year from 2020 to help developing countries to cope with climate change and they want their freedom to increase emissions enhanced as well.

Guess who is going to pay this as well as the large increases in electrical power costs caused by the increases in the subsidies paid to renewables (Hint - it aint Al Gore)