Another Keel Lost; Another Capsize

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by chris95040

How does one know the difference between an inlet that requires local knowledge, and one that does not?

Charts.

[TreblePlink]

Originally Posted by skipmac

Charts.

Exactly where on the chart in question does it say this?

[chris95040]

Originally Posted by TreblePlink

Exactly where on the chart in question does it say this?

I assume he's joking and isn't honestly suggesting that you'd use your charts to determine whether or not you can trust your charts.

[surf_sail]

Originally Posted by chris95040

How does one know the difference between an inlet that requires local knowledge, and one that does not?

In a similar vain, how much safer are you really at daytime? If it's overcast or murky waters you won't see the depth. Yeah you'll do better at deciphering buoys. But it certainly doesn't guarantee you from running aground. Maybe there are more boats to follow in? But following in a low draft motorboat is maybe even more likely to get you into trouble...

Now if it's a far-flung port without proper charting, I can totally see there is a lot of value in waiting until the visibility/sun is in a good position to see the depth. But for a relatively well charter port in Florida, is it really wrong to come in at night?

I remember once almost messing up coming into a port caseville, mi at night, but really it was due to my stupidity of not studying the chart well enough. With better preparation it should have been fine.

Happy to hear other thoughts on what makes daytime significantly safer (especially if it's overcast/murky)...

[atmartin]

Who hasn't taken the ground a time or two? For me, usually it's in fair weather, trying to squeeze into skinny water and anchor with the powerboats.

Sailing has a pretty steep learning curve and these two were obviously pushing the envelope, but I would submit that anyone with some mileage has put their own boat in some sketchy positions before and muddled through. Just this last Fall, I was pushing a schedule in November and chose to continue across Albemarle Sound (in NC) and enter the Alligator River on a moonless night, some rain and 25 knots out of the NE; lee shore/shoal scenario.

As we were trying to pick out the channel markers (not all lit, but as charted) it occurred to me that I'd made an error in trying this. Did I mention we were also under sail? Stupid, overconfident idiocy, but we got through.

Had we hit the bottom, there's no way we could have motored off against 2-3' bay chop and 25 knots in pitch black. Not sure we'd have lost the boat (no keel to fall off), but she would have been thrashed one way or the other.

Also, for the Boomers and Gen X/Y-ers: don't worry about the next generation. I know it's your job to fret over it, but we're doing fine. For every unfortunate couple like these two, there are more of us quietly fixing up and cruising on old sailboats. Mostly working. You don't hear about us because we're cautious, cowardly or nerdy. Maybe all three. In other words: boring.

I'm sure we could have claimed a few weeks of limited fame by hitting the shoals that night, but I have too many hours in our boat to let her go like that.

[boatman61]

Running aground happens on the Isle of Wight side of the Solent.. skipper see's a couple or three sailboats anchored close to shore so charge's in to grab a spot.. then hits bottom.. hard to tell a bilge keeler from a fin on the surface..

[TreblePlink]

Originally Posted by chris95040

I assume he's joking and isn't honestly suggesting that you'd use your charts to determine whether or not you can trust your charts.

OK, so I gather there is no straightforward way to tell if local knowledge is required. So, can I assume that anytime the water is thin relative to one's draft, it falls into this category?

This would seem to be the majority in Florida.

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by chris95040

How does one know the difference between an inlet that requires local knowledge, and one that does not?

If you don't know don't go.

Anchor out dinghy in and sound it out, get knowledge from someone who knows or follow in a deeper drafted vessel.

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by atmartin

Who hasn't taken the ground a time or two? For me, usually it's in fair weather, trying to squeeze into skinny water and anchor with the powerboats.

Sailing has a pretty steep learning curve and these two were obviously pushing the envelope, but I would submit that anyone with some mileage has put their own boat in some sketchy positions before and muddled through. Just this last Fall, I was pushing a schedule in November and chose to continue across Albemarle Sound (in NC) and enter the Alligator River on a moonless night, some rain and 25 knots out of the NE; lee shore/shoal scenario.

As we were trying to pick out the channel markers (not all lit, but as charted) it occurred to me that I'd made an error in trying this. Did I mention we were also under sail? Stupid, overconfident idiocy, but we got through.

Depth sounder with loud alarm - get one
And forget your schedule, probably the number one cause of boats coming to grief.
And no, in 40 years on the water i have never put any of our big boats in sketchy positions before. Small boats that we can get out and push off yes, but if we can't push it off, no.

[boatman61]

Go in slow and monitor your depth log constantly on a rising tide.. preferably without a following sea.. if you touch bottom you can back away.

[TreblePlink]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

If you don't know don't go.

[...]

Would any inlet features not accurately depicted on the chart be a Notice to Mariners?

In aviation, there is often an ATIS at the airport - a low-vhf broadcast of current conditions and non-charted or hidden hazards.

There should be a better system for communicating inlet local knowledge.

[Matt Johnson]

Originally Posted by TreblePlink

Exactly where on the chart in question does it say this?

This inlet is different, but take a look at the chart for Jupiter Inlet or St Lucie inlet on the other side of the state. The charts typically have notes saying to seek local knowledge. But, local knowledge doesn't always help.

We were coming into St Augustine FL in 2012 and called the local Tow Boat US for info on the inlet and buoy position after hurricane Sandy. We followed their suggestion and ran aground causing $22k in damage. We were the 6th boat that month to run aground in that spot alone. I learned to wait and follow other boats through instead of trying to go off verbal instructions. Most fishing boats, if you hail them on the VHF, will slow down and guide you through if you give them the chance.

Matt

[t3c9]

https://www.gofundme.com/new-sailing-life
Yay! Lets do it again!

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by TreblePlink

There should be a better system for communicating inlet local knowledge.

Why?

If you are a local and use the entrance regularly you probably have the knowledge
If you are not a local and don't have the knowledge don't go in until you have it.

Entrances can and do change regularly, often faster than they can be surveyed and notice to mariners issued.
Some places don't get surveyed at all.
Weve sailed areas where the last chart update was in the 1700s

[hellosailor]

Treble-
The LNTM will often say something like "Reported #42 off position..." but I don't know if there are any specific criteria for those comments. It could be that ten people made the same report over the two days before publication, and local work crews are so behind in their work that no one will have a chance to check it out, but the mark is a critical one in a high traffic area. Or not.
If you see a report like that, you have to view the mark more skeptically than usual. But for any mark that isn't concrete and steel with a big flashy light in a glass dome on top? You have to presume that EVERY mark has been hit, dragged, swung on the chain, moved by wreckers....Although that last one hasn't been actually proved in decades.

I've only seen that pass from the land. Watched a number of boats shooting in and out--and the sportfishermen usually do hit a plane very early on their way out--so I never paid much attention to the marks. But seeing #3 on the chart, and the way the open water seems east of it, while the marked channel runs west of it, I would look and that and say "WTF?" and proceed with great unease.

When it comes to local knowledge? Women often say "Men don't know how to pull over at a gas station and ask for directions" while men usually refrain from saying "Yeah, that's because the idiot behind the counter usually has no idea what he's talking about."

Sometimes the best local knowledge reply is "I don't know, I'm not from around here" but folks just don't seem willing to confess that.