Always use a snubber or your boat could end up like...

[Piscis]

Originally Posted by Tillsbury

Don't the charter boats have to have someone on board in charge of the vessel at all times when anchored? It's a bit different then. Every bareboat I've ever taken has always forbidden leaving the boat unattended at anchor.

I kept most of my charter contracts. What most of them says is: " The Charterer is required to keep a watch person onboard when anchored with wind speed of 20 knots or more"

11 pages of snubber talking.... well...

I really feel sorry for their loss of SeaDog. Heartbreaking!

John

[Sailing4Jesus]

When GRP came to Boat Building BEAUTY WAS REPLACED BY UGLY. However, just recently a boating angel introduced Carbon Fiber to the Yacht Building World, and now both Beauty and Very Strong Yachts are being built. A fine example can be seen in TENACIOUS, formally TEEL, a 114' Cutter Rigged Sloop.

[Q Xopa]

Originally Posted by Sailing4Jesus

When GRP came to Boat Building BEAUTY WAS REPLACED BY UGLY. However, just recently a boating angel introduced Carbon Fiber to the Yacht Building World, and now both Beauty and Very Strong Yachts are being built. A fine example can be seen in TENACIOUS, formally TEEL, a 114' Cutter Rigged Sloop.

That is nice to know, but did I miss the relevence to Snubbers?

[Idlegreg]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Indeed!


But this should be done whether or not you are using a snubber. And it should be done in a manner which is as strong as the chain.

I suppose this is my basic point - I was surprised when I read the early answers to this thread where almost all say the lesson is 'ALWAYS use a snubber' when I feel the lesson of the video is that one must secure the chain in such a way that you benefit from the full strength of the chain.

And thanks Mike and Dockhead for going on to talk more about the difference across the Atlantic as I am interested in why there is this alternative approach.

I did read many years ago that it is better to use a rope rode if riding out bad weather in shallow water (I think I got this from Adlard Coles book "In Broken Water" where they are forced to anchor through severe weather in an exposed Frisian Island Anchorage - it reminds me I must re-read that book) This rather fits with Dockhead's suggestion that because of the tidal range we Brits may commonly be in deeper water with plenty of chain out and a decent catenary (I manage with 8mm chain but my boat is rather smaller than Dockhead's - maybe the trick is make sure to use chain a little oversize for you boat - and with really small chain it might not work).

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Idlegreg

...And thanks Mike and Dockhead for going on to talk more about the difference across the Atlantic as I am interested in why there is this alternative approach.

Indeed… the international makeup of CF is part of what makes the forum so interesting. Different realities in different cruising grounds breed different “best” solutions. It’s a good reminder (to me) to remain a little humble in all these discussions .

I’m now curious about the standard approach in other places like the Med, or Oz. How about Northern Europe or the waters around Indonesia…?

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Idlegreg

I suppose this is my basic point - I was surprised when I read the early answers to this thread where almost all say the lesson is 'ALWAYS use a snubber' when I feel the lesson of the video is that one must secure the chain in such a way that you benefit from the full strength of the chain.. .

Yes! I wanted to say this myself, but I've repeated it so many times I've gotten sick of listening to myself. This is a very important point. The snubber has a function which should not be combined with the different function of attaching your boat to your ground tackle.


Nor is the connection at the end of the chain suitable for this.


/broken record mode

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

... I’m now curious about the standard approach in other places like the Med, or Oz. How about Northern Europe or the waters around Indonesia…?

Can't speak to Indonesia, but in the Baltic the practice seems to be about the same as in the UK (despite the lack of tide, which may blow my theory as to the origin) -- snubbers are used when they're needed, and otherwise not, which means larger boats don't generally use them in reasonably calm weather, and the more and heavier the chain, the more rarely the snubber is used.


It may be on the contrary a U.S./North American peculiarity, or maybe a small boat peculiarity, to think that you should never anchor without a snubber.


I grew up sailing in U.S. waters and my Dad, who was also a sailor, taught me to always use a snubber. He taught me that the snubber was an essential part of the ground tackle (also a chain lock, and he taught me to never ever leave the chain on the windlass except when the windlass is actually in use). So I only started considering going naked, so to speak, after I moved to Europe. But also we had smaller boats, 29', then 37', with much lighter chain, so the practice was probably more reasonable in any case. The 29' didn't even have a windlass, but we used an all-chain rode.

[FransvanBuuren]

Hello

Can you send me some samples ( pictures ) of snubbers you think are good ?

Best regards
Frans van Buuren
shishco@live.nl

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by Idlegreg

What I perhaps did not make clear is that I understand an all chain rode, which is very common here in the UK, does also have shock absorbing capability up until the point at which the chain is lifted bar taught.

My experience in Scandanavia was pretty consistent use of snubbers. I recall a discussion with a manager at HR on the subject, granted almost fifteen years ago. I haven't done a lot of anchoring in the UK. In the shadow of Hurst Castle I remember snubbers. It isn't hard to see the extra line going into the water and the chain hanging straight down from the bow roller. Maybe it was a meeting. "British Snubber Users." I only spent a few hours there waiting for a friend bringing me gear. The rest of my time in the UK I was on pontoons so I wasn't paying a lot of attention.

With respect to catenary of chain as a shock absorber it simply doesn't. See Tuning an Anchor Rode . It was the practice of waving off valid engineering calculations as not "real world" that led to my statement about bridges and elevators. Engineers do this work for a living. We keep ships moving, buildings standing, and other physical infrastructure operating. I'm really tired of scientific analysis being dismissed as "opinion" and uninformed opinion presented as fact. Perhaps, as Dockhead suggests, I'm being aggressive. It's been a rough week. That doesn't excuse presenting ill-informed opinion as fact. I've certainly stopped for lunch and skipped a snubber.

If there is a cultural divide across the Atlantic on this issue I am dumbfounded. I generally consider average European sailors to be more capable, better trained, and more careful than average Americans. To eschew snubbers runs counter to that belief (an opinion) on my part. I may have to reconsider.

[Idlegreg]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Can't speak to Indonesia, but in the Baltic the practice seems to be about the same as in the UK (despite the lack of tide, which may blow my theory as to the origin) -- snubbers are used when they're needed, and otherwise not, which means larger boats don't generally use them in reasonably calm weather, and the more and heavier the chain, the more rarely the snubber is used.


It may be on the contrary a U.S./North American peculiarity, or maybe a small boat peculiarity, to think that you should never anchor without a snubber.


I grew up sailing in U.S. waters and my Dad, who was also a sailor, taught me to always use a snubber. He taught me that the snubber was an essential part of the ground tackle (also a chain lock, and he taught me to never ever leave the chain on the windlass except when the windlass is actually in use). So I only started considering going naked, so to speak, after I moved to Europe. But also we had smaller boats, 29', then 37', with much lighter chain, so the practice was probably more reasonable in any case. The 29' didn't even have a windlass, but we used an all-chain rode.

I agree about the Baltic although most of the time I spent there was in the Swedish and Finnish Archipelagos where, after some initial nerves, I learned to copy the locals and generally tied up to a rock with a stern anchor out. In strong winds I did move off to swing at anchor but in among the islands there is hardly ever a significant swell so a snubber was not needed.

It is interesting to hear that it is such a definite thing in the US - I don't think boat size is a big issue as I spent the first 15 years on small (18 & 21 foot) boats and I never got the idea I should always use a snubber. In fact I was able to sneak into the best shelter more easily on those boats and so was generally well protected. The old books I learned from did not talk of snubbers much and here at least a more common suggestion, if the chain was coming up hard, was to send an anchor "chum" down the rode. I once sailed on a boat that had a fancy patent one and I bought the best I could find, being an over large saddle shaped galvanised shackle. This discussion has made me realise that I still carry it even though for many years now I have been on a boat without any inside ballast so I am not sure what heavy weight I could use with it (and I am sure I have read stuff in recent years pointing out that a Chum may not work that well anyway). I guess in the past they did not have such strong but stretchy ropes - using additional weight may be less relevant now our boats are full of strong, durable line of many sizes.

Perhaps the American habit grew out of having Windlasses on many more of the smaller recreational boats ? As soon as you have a windlass then you have to think of some way to take the load off the thing once anchored. In the UK I believe windlasses were not so common even on the boats used for long voyages. I think I remember Eric Hiscock (from whose books I did most of my early learning) talking about maximum sensible boat size and saying a normal Man could only comfortably handle an anchor up to about 60lbs. I was left feeling very weak by that statement but on once seeing a film he made I did notice he was built like Popeye!

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Auspicious

. . . With respect to catenary of chain as a shock absorber it simply doesn't. See Tuning an Anchor Rode . It was the practice of waving off valid engineering calculations as not "real world" that led to my statement about bridges and elevators. Engineers do this work for a living. We keep ships moving, buildings standing, and other physical infrastructure operating. I'm really tired of scientific analysis being dismissed as "opinion" and uninformed opinion presented as fact. Perhaps, as Dockhead suggests, I'm being aggressive. It's been a rough week. That doesn't excuse presenting ill-informed opinion as fact. I've certainly stopped for lunch and skipped a snubber.

Who is dismissing scientific analysis? Where did you get that from anything which has been posted?


All that has been said is that some people, and rather many people in this part of the world, do without snubbers, at least larger boats, in calm weather. That's a fact which doesn't contradict any scientific analysis.


If you use Alain's wonderful spreadsheets you can see that 100 meters of 12mm chain will keep chain on the seabed (i.e. catenary still working as a spring) right up to 894daN of force, nearly a ton of force. That's more than the ABYC design load for 30 knots of wind for my boat, which itself is supposed to overstate typical forces by 3x.



Even with only 60 meters, the critical tension is 307daN -- ABYC conservative spec for 18 knots.


So why does it "contradict science" to go without a snubber in less than 20 knots of wind, if you have 70 or 80 meters of heavy chain out?



I've done it for many years, and it works perfectly well. Especially in deep water, the chain catenary works great and a snubber is entirely superfluous.


As I said, if there's a risk of wind over 20 knots, or if there is any question about wave action, I always put the snubber on. Never a single problem in all these years, even being surprised by squalls etc. With most of my 100m of chain out and in deep water -- the way I often anchor -- it takes serious wave action to pull the catenary out. I've been surprised by 30 knots blasts and there was no issue, no snatching, no problem.


With experience you get to know how much wind can produce a "bar tight" chain and in what conditions you need a snubber, and in what conditions you don't need a snubber. This varies greatly according to the size and length of chain you have out, so you can't extrapolate from experience on small boats with light chain, what it's like on a larger boat with a heavy chain, especially in deep water.

Originally Posted by Auspicious

If there is a cultural divide across the Atlantic on this issue I am dumbfounded. I generally consider average European sailors to be more capable, better trained, and more careful than average Americans. To eschew snubbers runs counter to that belief (an opinion) on my part. I may have to reconsider.

Who "eschews snubbers"? Nobody said that. I don't know anyone who doesn't have a snubber on board. I know plenty of people who don't put it on, when they don't need it, which is a different proposition. I don't understand why this is so horrifying to you. If your particular chain will absorb nearly a ton of force before the catenary comes out, and that kind of force occurs only in 30+ knots of wind according to the conservative ABYC spec, is it unseamanlike to rely on that catenary instead of a snubber in 10 or 15 knots of wind? Of course not. And if it pipes up unexpectedly, you go up on deck and put the snubber on -- no big deal. You sure as heck feel it, when the catenary starts to come out of the chain.





As to average quality of seamanship: I have cruised decades in both hemisphere, and I generally agree with you. The Brits are superb, with uniformly high level of seamanship, skill, etc. There are yobs everywhere, but they are relatively few in UK waters. A seafaring nation, a nation of sailors -- it's maybe not surprising. French sailors tend to be divided into two groups -- super sailors, better than anyone, and abysmal klutzes, especially anchoring. Don't know where that comes from, but it is a widespread observed phenomenon. Scandinavians -- those old Vikings -- tend to be excellent. With their yobs too as sailing is a very popular sport and is practiced by a lot of people who don't take it very seriously. But they are knowledgeable, study, get training (although it's not required), and there are relatively few idiots in Scandi waters. Ditto for the Finns. Ditto for the Dutch.



Worlds and worlds better than our own countrymen, and part of that might be attitude. Our guys seem sometimes even proud of their own ignorance; boat ownership is often more of a status symbol and a privilege of some kind which entitles rather than obliges; it's different in Europe, at least Northern Europe.

[Idlegreg]

Originally Posted by Auspicious

My experience in Scandanavia was pretty consistent use of snubbers. I recall a discussion with a manager at HR on the subject, granted almost fifteen years ago. I haven't done a lot of anchoring in the UK. In the shadow of Hurst Castle I remember snubbers. It isn't hard to see the extra line going into the water and the chain hanging straight down from the bow roller. Maybe it was a meeting. "British Snubber Users." I only spent a few hours there waiting for a friend bringing me gear. The rest of my time in the UK I was on pontoons so I wasn't paying a lot of attention.

With respect to catenary of chain as a shock absorber it simply doesn't. See Tuning an Anchor Rode . It was the practice of waving off valid engineering calculations as not "real world" that led to my statement about bridges and elevators. Engineers do this work for a living. We keep ships moving, buildings standing, and other physical infrastructure operating. I'm really tired of scientific analysis being dismissed as "opinion" and uninformed opinion presented as fact. Perhaps, as Dockhead suggests, I'm being aggressive. It's been a rough week. That doesn't excuse presenting ill-informed opinion as fact. I've certainly stopped for lunch and skipped a snubber.

If there is a cultural divide across the Atlantic on this issue I am dumbfounded. I generally consider average European sailors to be more capable, better trained, and more careful than average Americans. To eschew snubbers runs counter to that belief (an opinion) on my part. I may have to reconsider.

Auspicious

I agree with much of what you say and I am all in favour of engineers, having shared my boats with a structural engineer for many years. I agree we should not put blind faith in opinion when there are valid calculations we can use. I rebuilt the rig on the current boat and there is hardly a screw or rivet involved for which I did not ask my friend to calculate the strength to be expected.

However (and ignoring the fact that engineers are always learning new truths) a calculation is only relevant if all the correct inputs are used including the often vague question as to what compromises the user is happy to make. When someone designs a Steel framed building they have to meet codes which specify the forces it must resist. After it is built the engineer gets on with his or her life leaving the users of the building with few instructions. They just trust they can use it whatever the weather.

When I am on my boat I am always monitoring the actual and forecast weather. I am choosing my anchorages taking account of the sea and wind forces likely to be acting on the boat. I put comfort pretty high up the list and in something like 40 years of sailing there have been very few if any cases where a Snubber was required to stop the anchor dragging or the forces damaging the boat.

I looked briefly at the web site you linked and I absolutely agree that a combined chain and rope rode can provide better ultimate holding. I just don't think that I need that 99% of the time based on the type of sailing I am doing. It seems in the UK my view is more common - either through tradition or because others agree with my reasoning. (If you were on the inside of Hurst as opposed to outside the Solent I would have expected you to notice how unusually flat the water often is, maybe on account of the strong tides sluicing past the anchorage - I have happily spent the night there without a snubber although I am only talking of overnight).

I do wonder if my experience is also based on my having mainly sailed heavy old long keel boats which respond slowly and keeping to sheltered anchorages whenever possible. I think we are interested here in the shock load when the boat is brought up hard by the anchor and rode. My boat is heavy but in the sort of gusts and waves/swell that I experience at anchor the snubbing on the chain does not seem excessive, maybe not just because of the weight of lifting the chain but also the damping force of the water on the chains movement and the fact that the forces pushing the boat are transmitted via fluid air and water so they do not get the boat moving very suddenly.

Mind you after learning that so many of my American fellows always use a Snubber I am left thinking about them more (they just don't arise in many English sailing discussions) maybe I will be a bit more likely to use one in the future if leaving the boat in a more hazardous anchorage. Anchoring up a sheltered muddy creek in ordinary conditions I doubt I will ever bother.

I doubt that UK sailors are more or less capable in general. Anywhere you go you will find a range of skippers from the super cautious and well informed to the downright crazy and ill infomed. We are lucky that we are still free to choose our path and yet manage to do very little harm to other people while engaged in our fascinating hobby.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Idlegreg

. . . I doubt that UK sailors are more or less capable in general. Anywhere you go you will find a range of skippers from the super cautious and well informed to the downright crazy and ill infomed. We are lucky that we are still free to choose our path and yet manage to do very little harm to other people while engaged in our fascinating hobby.

Believe me, you guys are on average vastly more skilled than we are as sailors. More polite, too (excluding some racers suffering from testosterone poisoning -- common habitat, the Solent). An opinion widely shared in Europe, by the way, of UK sailors.



Same goes for UK drivers, except only the White Van Men. It's a sheer pleasure driving in the UK, after dealing with aggressive or incompetent American drivers (and sometimes both at the same time).



The last truly great thing about sailing in UK waters is the almost total lack of regulation. America is supposed to be the land of the free, but as far as I can tell sailing is more highly regulated in the U.S. than any other place on earth. In Florida waters, we used to get boarded several times a year, something which my Father's joining the Coast Guard Auxiliary didn't stop. The worst are the dreaded Toilet Police, who put dye tablets in your toilets to make sure your diverter valves are correctly set, and God help you if they catch you with a toilet which can flush overboard. Then we pay taxes every year on the value of the boat, and have to register in every state, whether or not we've registered the boat federally. Spend 6 months in the waters of any one state, even if you're paying taxes in your home state, and they will come collect. God help you if you have come from abroad or even appear to have come from abroad; CBP are on you like white on rice with document after document, and as likely as not will rummage through your boat looking for contraband -- you're lucky if they don't actually rip it apart, for which you have no recourse. My father's longstanding habit for many years was to cruise to Cuba every year; by the early 2000's the harassment was so bad he just had to stop.


In 10 years of cruising UK waters from Land's End to the top of the Orkney Islands, I've been boarded -- 0 times. Zero. Goose eggs. I have not even been hailed by a Coast Guard or Border Protection cutter, although I sail into and out of UK waters at least 10 times every year. When coming from abroad, I turn myself in over the phone (it's called "Yachtline", special expedited over-the-phone customs and border control for recreational sailors) and get cleared after 5 minutes of pleasant phone conversation. No taxation, no registration required for any seagoing boat. The only document they could even conceivably demand from you is some kind of proof that VAT has been paid, but I've never heard of that. Virtually no rules for boats under 40 feet; few rules (liferaft being the main one) for bigger boats, and zero inspection or enforcement. Flush wherever you want; you are trusted not to do it near a beach on in an anchorage (trust, as opposed to suspicious LEO poking around in your heads, what a concept!); the idea of Toilet Police is inconceivable to a UK sailor. For the UK authorities, sailing, even sailing across national borders, is a normal activity, perfectly respectable, and not inherently suspicious in any way. What a breath of fresh air.

[Mike OReilly]

Fascinating discussion. This brings to mind the day shapes usage thread of some time ago, where again there seems to be a New World/Old World divide in common practice. Here too I am left wondering if the differing practices produce different outcomes.

I don’t have any sense that UK boats perform less well at anchor than us over in the colonies. But if this really is such a clear delineation of practice, then outcome data could be interesting.

I should note that where I cruise, 20 knots is normal winds. But it’s true that this does not produce ‘bar-hard’ rode on my relatively heavy full-keel boat. I use 3/8” chain (~10mm). Have not bothered to note exactly what windspeed is required, but probably over 25 … maybe 30.

[Idlegreg]

Dockhead

Rather off topic but I am with you on the lack of regulation here in the UK and I had not realised that Americans are taxed from state to state as they move their boats around - generally I am not anti tax but that sounds crazy. While I am often a supporter of government regulation and taxation I do wish some of my fellows in this did not enjoy making peoples lives hard for little reason.

When I rule the World there will be plenty of rules and taxes but there will be a whole department of state tasked with eliminating unnecessary burdens on the public continually monitoring the cost benefit of regulations and helping the people comply with the rules that remain with the minimum of effort.

My big selfish fear with Brexit is that we will lose the fantastic freedom of movement we have enjoyed - I rather fancied more wandering aimlessly around Europen coasts before I died. Like you I have not been hassled by the authorities and tax on the boat is harmonised so pay once in one country and you are covered everywhere as you must have found.

In 2 long seasons visiting the Baltic, during which I visited 7 countries, I only got boarded once on my way home and that was when I turned up in Lauwersoog in the middle of the night in November so I guess the Customs men were bored - the attentive Dutch coastguard had spotted me on AIS and Radar then guided me buoy to buoy along the entrance channel, which was fortunate as the buoys were unlit and I might have had to spend the night rolling offshore. The customs post was at the marina entrance and I suppose having heard the VHF chatter they were outside their hut as I came into the empty marina. 15 mins later 3 big guys arrived on the pontoon and very politely asked if they could look over my boat. My crew did say she saw one cast his torch over the toilet plumbing so maybe that was the big interest - I have a holding tank but the changeover is not locked - there was no complaint.

Don't tell the other Americans on this thread but a few days before entering Lauwersoog I had similar problem with unlit buoys off Nordeney and lacking the Dutch Coastguard I had chickened out of the entrance so anchored offshore - without a snubber!! The wind was very light and although there was a slight swell there was no malice in it :-)