Newbie- 2002 Seawind 1000 VS. 1998 Fountaine Pajot Tobago

[PinnacleSupply]

Hello All!

My names Rob. I'm an avid Hobie 16 sailor and now living in the SF bay area which requires me to think about a bigger boat. Long story short- I grew up between Cebu, Philippines and Park City, UT. Avid outdoorsman and waterman, I specialize in operations management. Looking for my first bluewater cruising cat, focused on simplicity, reliability, and speed. Hope to hone my skills on the SF Bay over the next 2-3 years before setting sail for the Philippines where I plan to keep the boat for cruising there.

What brought me to post today is that I have finally narrowed my boat selection down to two options:

1. 2002 Seawind 1000- BRISTOL CONDITION- $150K
2. 1998 Fountaine Pajot Tobago- Needs some general recond. (I'm OCD)- $125K

The things that I would like to know/hear about from current owners of each:

1. Open bridge deck vs Closed?
2. Kitchen in bridge deck vs Stb hull?
3. General reliability
4. Offshore safety and sea handling when it gets heavy
5. Speed

I am leaning toward the bristol Seawind 1000 at this point because it is already in my area and an amazing cat. The seller has clocked 17 knots!

I will be financing this purchase with a home equity line from my fully paid off home in the bay area and plan to pay the loan off early in the next 3yrs(fixed interest at 3.5%), prior to sailing the boat to the Philippines. What are peoples experiences financing a boat like this?

Any other thoughts or recommendations?

Thanks!

[Dulcesuenos]

Top speed means nothing our friends avg cruise speed on a same boat is 6 knots lol. My estimation is under cruise loaded the boats will be close in speed. But both great boats. The FP will feel more secure and private, your security and privacy is not down in a claustrophobic hull. The load carrying for the fp is decent not sure on the SW. Both good boats and sail decent.you should try to spend time on the sw and truly imagine living on it. I think it would be a fun boat. My wife would not another option may be a pdq 36?

Financing a boat with a home equity loan is a much different experience than taking a loan w the boat as collateral.

Sent from my LG-LS980 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[monte]

I agree with the above comments. Expect both to sail at similar speeds, averaging 6-7-8kn in 10-20kn winds, depending on point of sail and sea state. I think the FP would be more liveable long term, but both seem overpriced for 15 yr old boats. I think you can pick up a new Seawind for close to 200K. You would also get a similar age Lagoon 380 for 150K. Try sail a few different models and compare for yourself. 150K might be reasonable for a small cat IF it comes with virtually new sails and rigging, very low engine hours, a good set of downwind sails, a watermaker, ample solar and battery capacity and near new electronics, ie, had a lot of money spent on it recently...

Regarding your questions.



1. Open bridge deck vs Closed?

I'd prefer closed for security and comfort


2. Kitchen in bridge deck vs Stb hull?

Much nicer in the bridgedeck


3. General reliability

Both would be similar, although replacing the sea winds outboards would be easier and cheaper than replacing the FP diesels


4. Offshore safety and sea handling when it gets heavy

I'd prefer the FP but seawind 1000 s have circumnavigated. Take a look at Katie kats blog or dejavu III (they were must anchored next to us yesterday)


5. Speed

About the same as any small cruising cat, average passage speeds around 6kn, get excited when you see double figures for short periods occasionally.

I'd also check out the shionning designed wildcats. Built in South Africa. A nice design for a small cat and circumnavigated. The bumfuzzle blog has good info on those.

Financing...well a home equity loan at 3.5% Is probably your best option if you don't want to wait till you save enough. It depends on your financial comfort threshold but if your considering it I guess your OK with that. Just make sure you look into all the boat ownership costs before jumping in head first so you know what to expect.

[sailjumanji]

I have the same model and year Seawind. Prior to this, owned a Corsair 28R that we raced for about seven years, and before that a Corsair 24 that we daysailed and raced. Prior, a Beneteau 235, beach cats, etc. Anyway, the Seawind represented a step in a cruising direction for us. It sails very well, and we've done some offshore races in it as well, and done very well vs larger cruising multihulls - including all of the FP's. That said, I have never seen 17 knots it in, but it does sail at hull speed of around 7-7.5 knots pretty easily. On a reach in a decent blow can get 12-14 knots. I don't have the screacher - just the furling jib - and understand those guys are faster on a reach. We've had the boat in some heavy weather, and really like the enclosed hard top. It has enough conveniences and we do have several couple friends that have lived on them for extended time - and some on multiyear cruises. We are planning to head to the Bahamas for three months early next year. My wife is a fan of the boat, but maybe it's because it is so much more comfortable than the previous Corsair's. She also feels much safer. Solar panels run the fridge and freezer all of the time, hot water on demand and bbq and stove run on propane, 100 gal water tank">fresh water tank, around 30 gal fuel tanks. I had to replace the two outboards but glad it was that and not diesel motors built in. You will find lighter and faster, but this is built like a tank and sails pretty good numbers. There is also a pretty active forum for owners that the manufacturer monitors as well. If you have a problem, someone else has probably addressed it.

I have friends with enclosed saloons on the deck, instead of our open setup, and although they have privacy, it feels closed in. When we have raftups, everyone ends up on our boat. We really like the openness and room. And there is a canvas enclosure for the back to close it off in the winter. And some canvas extensions that cover the deck area from behind the hard top to the solar panels. Very nice for the Texas sun.

PM me if you have specific questions, and we can talk on the phone. Frankly this will likely be the last boat I own as it fits our needs for daysailing and short-term cruising very well. No regrets. Google Katie Kat and you can find a lot of info on a California based cat that the owners cruised pretty extensively.

I can't comment on load carrying ability, because our cruising has been limited to a couple of weeks at a time. We carry the dinghy hanging from the arches in the back. We just purchased a watermaker so we have fresh RO water in the remote islands, plus don't have to carry full water tanks. We put a marine A/C unit in the port hull. We carry 150 ft of chain, and a Rocna anchor. We are definitely not a light boat, but I suspect when we head out for three months next year that will be the real test.

[sailjumanji]

Originally Posted by monte

I think you can pick up a new Seawind for close to 200K.

When I purchased mine back in 2006-07, new ones were around $230k. My guess is that they are in the high $200's now. But there is a California dealer that can answer that pretty quickly. Two friends that did sell their boats were pleasantly surprised about the resale market. One still wishes he had never sold.

The XL model is about three feet longer, and has cleaner water exit at the stern. Also better flotation in the back where it can be beneficial especially if carrying a heavier dinghy and motor. (I went with an Avon Lite RIB and an 8 hp, and that is no problem). Several owners have extended the hulls either by pure custom boat yard, or with extensions provided by Seawind. I think the kit is about $5k and probably another $5k in labor/completion.

[monte]

I'd be surprised if they're high 200s. I recently saw pricing close to USD200K. Unless there was some marketing ploy, but I doubt it. I assume relocating manufacturing to Asia and the fact that they can be delivered in a 40' container has reduced prices. I might be off base but I'm sure someone can provide more detail.

[BlueSlue]

Something to consider when purchasing a used boat in California is that you will be charged a sales tax based on the tax rate of the city where you reside. It can be a hefty rate, so take that into account. The way around this tax is to arrange for an offshore purchase and keep the boat out of CA for at least one year. Of course, that could involve other expenses like travel and not being able to have quick access to your boat, so it may not be worth it to save $10-15K.

I have no thoughts on the FP, but if you like the Seawind check out the new 1150 Lite. You could possibly take delivery directly from the factory in Vietnam, since you want to bring it to the Philippines anyway. I think they are running closer to $300K than $200K, but may be worth a little investigation. I had a chance to visit their factory last year when I traveled to Vietnam and it was pretty cool to see, although I don't know enough about boat manufacturing to understand the finer points. It was clear they were proud of their process and product, FWIW. I ended up buying a used monohull close to home because I realized that I just wasn't ready for a boat that large. Maybe someday I'll trade up.

For a used boat and first time-owner, Bristol condition is the way to go, IMHO. Also, for me it has been helpful to buy from someone who is local and available to answer questions that have come up since the purchase.

[PinnacleSupply]

First off, Thank you all for the informative responses. I really appreciate the insights, many great points. I feel that I need to clarify that once the boat makes it to the Philippines it will be a dock queen for the majority of its time. It will be used 3-5 times a year to sail around the Philippines. I plan to leave this boat for my extended family to enjoy and intend to upgrade the boat I own locally in 3-4 years.

The seawind had an entire refit in 2012. It is in incredible condition and has mostly new sails. The FP however isn't owned by an OCD millionaire so it is in need of some work.

I understand that top speed isn't all that its measured up to be, however I am looking for a cat that I can max out in the conditions of the SF bay. I'm interested in weekend competitive sailing/beer can regattas to hone my skills and feel that I will get so much more enjoyment and use out of a boat that is actually fun to sail.

Monte- I'll check out your recommendation. Unfortunately bristol cats are fetching a premium overall. I want a turnkey rig that I can start sailing tomorrow. With slip fees fetching over 700/mo here (and dry dock not far behind), I don't want to waste time bringing a boat I don't know up to condition that can handle the bay. This place shreds the unprepared... I'm looking into current pricing on new boats and will post figures when I get them.

sailjumanji- I feel the same way. It seems that if you aren't living aboard the seawind is a great boat, and nearly indestructible. However, I'm apprehensive about the galley being so tight and hot in the tropics. I don't think that will be a huge problem in the PI because we will have a dedicated skipper and cook, so we (I.E. my extended family) won't have to deal with it, but when myself and the lady want to enjoy ourselves it will be a sacrifice.

Overall, THESE BOATS ARE EXPENSIVE AS F*&K! If the boat weren't eventually going to the shallow and ever-changing seas of the Philippines I'd probably be in the market for a much cheaper mono for SF bay. I currently have open access to J24's and First 235's but NEED more large multihull experience before I sail across the pac, and charters just don't make sense around here...

The home equity line approach is a means to get sailing right away, and to expedite learning how to sail larger multihulls. I will pay it off completely within the next 3 years prior to the trip to the PI.

Once again, thank you all for your insight, this site has proven to be a great resource.

[PinnacleSupply]

Its more than I want to spend, but I've also been considering this Mumby 48 Aluminum Cat that was built in Cebu-

Comparisons?

Used Mumby 48 for Sale | Yachts For Sale | Yachthub

[monte]

Pin, I'd probably reassess your agenda from a different viewpoint and look at the idea of buying a cat for your next three years intentions (sailing SF bay) and consider the idea of selling and buying another one in the Philippines when you are wanting to relocate there. Plans can change and after three years you are likely to have totally different ideas about the perfect boat for you. Also the Philippines is close to the end of the trade wind milk run, so a lot of cats are offered nearby at very reasonable prices. Sailing a cat from the US to Philippines would probably equate to at least a 10% loss in the sales value. It seems you are pretty keen on the seawind so go for a test sail, make an offer and send us the pics of your new boat next week

[Factor]

Originally Posted by PinnacleSupply

Its more than I want to spend, but I've also been considering this Mumby 48 Aluminum Cat that was built in Cebu-

Comparisons?

Used Mumby 48 for Sale | Yachts For Sale | Yachthub

Obviously I like the Seawind 1000 . The Mumby's are great boats, among the best passage making liveaboards that there are - quick and tough. All cats and particularly Aluminium Cats need a good - indeed very good multihull knowledgeable surveyor and they have a couple of "quirks" regarding their care, and antifoul is a constant battle, but a good one is a seriously good boat.

[sailjumanji]

One of our big concerns in picking a cruising boat was that we wanted something that could actually sail. We just spent a dozen years campaigning Corsair trimarans, four trips to Key West Race Week in the Corsair 28R, a few Nationals events, NOOD's, etc. Even a very successful string of offshore (150 mile) races. We didn't want to buy a doggy sailing boat. The Seawind is not a Corsair, but it has a decent sized main, some with sprit and screacher/spinnaker, twin wheels, large traveler - it actually sails quite well. Doesn't point as high as the Corsair, but not much different angle than the monohulls. We typically outsail all of the large cruising cat fleet, but do fall short of a well-sailed Maine Cat - mostly due to weight difference. We've been caught beating in 30+ knot winds in an offshore race of 150 nm a few years ago, and only cruising class multihull to beat us across the line was a veteran Bahia 46 (by 15 minutes, but lost horribly to us on corrected time). The Lagoon 42, Lagoon 38, another FP, and the Maine Cat (which flooded the cockpit in the big waves while they merely washed over our hard top) were hours behind. We were double reefed (only because we didn't have a line in the third reef), all sheets bar tight, the mast was pumping like crazy, and everyone onboard was seasick at one time or another (luckily not all at the same time). The Bahia 46 disappeared between waves and obviously had a smoother ride due to waterline, but the back of the boat was covered in barf as well!

That said, which one is going to take bad weather conditions better, and carry more weight? Look at the hull displacement. Wide hulls make for slower boat, but less effected by adding weight. The Seawind that left here a couple of years ago for several months Bahamas cruising had about a 4 inch change in waterline height. Judging from some of his passage times, it had less effect on speed. When we race, we empty the water tanks, take the dinghy off of the back, but leave the chair rode in place. The boat feels much more maneuverable. Probably has less effect on speed than imagined.

Finally, if you want a do-everything boat, my advice is to save your money and buy an Atlantic 42. Friend of mine had one, and it's fast, sails very well, and he cruised it for years. But you need to be prepared to spend some real money. Not Gunboat crazy money, but more than production multihulls.

Good luck in your search.

[Mr Big]

Posted by mistake...

[Dulcesuenos]

If I were looking for a cat in the phillipines, Id seriously consider this, sails probably as good or better than the seawind, still has the comfort of the FP, costs less than both, some pretty cool features.

Woods Vardo 36 Catamaran for Sale by owner

[PinnacleSupply]

Originally Posted by Dulcesuenos

Financing a boat with a home equity loan is a much different experience than taking a loan w the boat as collateral.

What would you say the major differences are? The main reason I want to do it this way vs. financing the boat outright is so that I can sail further, ie baja/central america. I understand that under some boat loans you are limited. Is this correct?