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Old 24-06-2020, 07:31   #31
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Re: Still Working (and winning) at Age 82

For many, it has nothing to do with having enough money to retire.

Some of us believe that as long as you are still learning and growing as a person in your job, you can always retire at a later age.

We know so much more today about how to stay healthy that if we are lucky we might be able to function into our late 80's.

Able to function meaning able do things like work, sail/cruise, do light workouts, cycling, ride horses, etc

Which is why I brought up 82 year old Barclay Tagg who is still doing all that in his job.......
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Old 24-06-2020, 07:36   #32
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Re: Still Working (and winning) at Age 82

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If it makes someone happy continuing to work, agreed, more power to them but the majority of families can get by just fine on a single income and that hasn't really changed.

If work brings you joy, then go on working. But this (bolded) statement is not supported by any credible evidence I've seen. All the economic research I'm aware of indicates the opposite. I referenced one overview paper, but I'm happy to provide many more citations if need be. Can you please cite your research that supports the above assertion.

I'm completely in the frugal camp. I couldn't live the way I do otherwise. But I am also quite far from be representative of the "majority of families."
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Old 24-06-2020, 07:54   #33
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Re: Still Working (and winning) at Age 82

I had to bail on my career 7 years ago as I just couldn't take the stress of it any longer plus my hearing was failing to the point where I was getting into some dangerous situations. So we got a boat and went cruising for a year and a half. Those pesky episodes of chest pain and shortness of breath on exertion could, just as we were poised to cross the Canal into the Pacific, no longer be ignored. 6 stents later we gave it all up and have now been landlocked 4.5 yrs. I have to say there are times when I wish I had more direction but when I consider going back to what I was doing I am so glad to be retired. It is great never having to miss a family/kid event because of work. We take our chartered sailing vacations when convenient to US. Now if COVID would just GTFO.. . . .
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Old 24-06-2020, 08:42   #34
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Re: Still Working (and winning) at Age 82

Correct.


Young people are not taught financial literacy.


Journalists have a saying that goes: "If you want to know who is behind it, ask yourself who benefits from it".


Unfortunately, young people are not taught good journalism either.


doomed, doomed


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Old 24-06-2020, 08:54   #35
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Re: Still Working (and winning) at Age 82

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If work brings you joy, then go on working. But this (bolded) statement is not supported by any credible evidence I've seen. All the economic research I'm aware of indicates the opposite. I referenced one overview paper, but I'm happy to provide many more citations if need be. Can you please cite your research that supports the above assertion.

I'm completely in the frugal camp. I couldn't live the way I do otherwise. But I am also quite far from be representative of the "majority of families."
Again, the difference is need vs want. Those modern studies assume the $500 cell phone with $100/month plan, a new car every 2yrs, 2500sft house, etc... and then say, "see, families can't afford to live on what they make."

Yes, you can live very comfortably on $40k/yr. You can't be frivolous with money making that much or it will come back to bite you.

My research is having lived on that amount while enjoying a very nice lifestyle for many years. I also help people out from time to time getting on a budget and I've yet to come across anyone where I couldn't trim at least 20% out of what they are spending all without significantly impacting their lifestyle.
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Old 24-06-2020, 09:05   #36
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Re: Still Working (and winning) at Age 82

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Again, the difference is need vs want. Those modern studies assume the $500 cell phone with $100/month plan, a new car every 2yrs, 2500sft house, etc... and then say, "see, families can't afford to live on what they make."

Yes, you can live very comfortably on $40k/yr. You can't be frivolous with money making that much or it will come back to bite you.

My research is having lived on that amount while enjoying a very nice lifestyle for many years. I also help people out from time to time getting on a budget and I've yet to come across anyone where I couldn't trim at least 20% out of what they are spending all without significantly impacting their lifestyle.
Totally agree Valhalla, I've never come across a situation where you couldn't trim fat from the budget of someone who says "it is impossible!". You can always get them on the right path. Now I will say, if you think it is some god given right to raise a family in big city on $40,000/year and complain you can't get ahead there is no help for you.

When in the history of the world was have uneducated unskilled laborers as a whole had a higher standard of living than today?
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Old 24-06-2020, 09:30   #37
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Re: Still Working (and winning) at Age 82

As any researcher will tell you, anecdotal evidence is the worst kind. Just because someone can happen, doesn't prove it has any relevance to the broader question. People can go to the moon, but that is not the norm.

Or to take a personal example, and to bring it back to cruising, some people can live and cruise on $17k/year, but that doesn't mean everyone can (as I'm usually told in those budget threads).
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Old 24-06-2020, 09:31   #38
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Re: Still Working (and winning) at Age 82

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Totally agree Valhalla, I've never come across a situation where you couldn't trim fat from the budget of someone who says "it is impossible!". You can always get them on the right path. Now I will say, if you think it is some god given right to raise a family in big city on $40,000/year and complain you can't get ahead there is no help for you.

When in the history of the world was have uneducated unskilled laborers as a whole had a higher standard of living than today?
I spent a few summers where I had to commute to downtown Detroit daily from the boat. Rather than take the big truck it was easier and cheaper to take the bus. It gave me a lot of time to quietly observe people.

I saw lots of people in fast food uniforms with the latest iphone and $300 sneakers. Now, I could be using a totally inappropriate stereotype but I'm betting they weren't making anything close to $100k/yr and they could survive just fine with a $50 smart phone and $40 sneakers. I'm also pretty sure if they gave me access to all their spending (I won't say budget as I'm sure there is none), there are other plenty of other areas where they are overspending.

But this all doesn't fit the narrative that people aren't earning enough.
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Old 24-06-2020, 09:57   #39
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Re: Still Working (and winning) at Age 82

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As any researcher will tell you, anecdotal evidence is the worst kind. Just because someone can happen, doesn't prove it has any relevance to the broader question. People can go to the moon, but that is not the norm.

Or to take a personal example, and to bring it back to cruising, some people can live and cruise on $17k/year, but that doesn't mean everyone can (as I'm usually told in those budget threads).
If you are looking for average or typical result, correct, anecdotal is often way off (do average people go to the moon?...well, I know of a few guys who went to the moon).

But when establishing minimums or maximums, it's very useful (ie: Is it possible to go to the moon?...well, I have this anecdotal story about a few guys who did go to the moon).

Can you cruise on $17k/yr? Sure, it won't be a fun lifestyle for most but you can do it. I along with many other would CHOOSE not to do it.

You asked for research. The below demonstrates that those with the lowest income are least likely to plan their finances (budget, long term goals, etc...) even though they are in most need of spending wisely. While everyone can benefit from planning, low earning individuals can't afford to be sloppy with spending and get away with it. Kind of hard to buy into the idea that they don't make enough when most don't even try to control their finances (it is sad that even well educated and high earning individuals don't make finances a priority in higher percentages but it's a general thing that I don't feel sorry for people who choose not to be responsible):

https://news.gallup.com/poll/162872/...ld-budget.aspx
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Old 24-06-2020, 10:10   #40
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Re: Still Working (and winning) at Age 82

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Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
If you are looking for average or typical result, correct, anecdotal is often way off (do average people go to the moon?...well, I know of a few guys who went to the moon).

But when establishing minimums or maximums, it's very useful (ie: Is it possible to go to the moon?...well, I have this anecdotal story about a few guys who did go to the moon).

Can you cruise on $17k/yr? Sure, it won't be a fun lifestyle for most but you can do it. I along with many other would CHOOSE not to do it.

You asked for research. The below demonstrates that those with the lowest income are least likely to plan their finances (budget, long term goals, etc...) even though they are in most need of spending wisely. While everyone can benefit from planning, low earning individuals can't afford to be sloppy with spending and get away with it. Kind of hard to buy into the idea that they don't make enough when most don't even try to control their finances (it is sad that even well educated and high earning individuals don't make finances a priority in higher percentages but it's a general thing that I don't feel sorry for people who choose not to be responsible):

https://news.gallup.com/poll/162872/...ld-budget.aspx

Yes, anecdote can show what is possible. It doesn't tell you much about what is probable.

Raising financial literacy is tengental at best. Sure, it's probably true. But that's not what you asserted in your statement. You said: "the majority of families can get by just fine on a single income and that hasn't really changed." This is a false statement based on actual evidence.

If you had said "some families..." or "it is possible...", we'd be sharing thumbs-ups. But your claim (apparently supported by others here) that all we need to do is give people better financial training belies the mountains of data and research that shows exactly as I quoted from the summary article:

Quote:
Taken together, these figures indicate that, while the average person is still making the same amount of money when accounting for inflation, prices for many of the daily necessities have gone up considerably, which means that each dollar earned does, in fact, buy less than it did 20 years ago.

People don't need financial training. They need more money.
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Old 24-06-2020, 10:33   #41
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Re: Still Working (and winning) at Age 82

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People don't need financial training. They need more money.

I'm actually on your side of the argument Mike, but I have to disagree with this statement. At least in the US financial training is horrible. We are bombarded by messages of "buy, buy buy", "do what you love for a job" (vs do what pays), and "live the american dream". This coupled with interest rates that encourage borrowing and discourage saving leads to a systematic issue where people mismanage their funds. Proper education could help the individual make the most of their situation.



This debate along with the unemployment/jobs debate both have two parts to it. There is the "what is best for me as an individual" and the systemic issues.



In the best for me as an individual is the fact that living below your means (or in the case of a job, getting the most training you can, working harder etc) will improve your chances of success.



But there is also systematic issues with our employment and money processes. The jobs we're adding are more service oriented and are driving down wages. Regulations make it better for corporations to hire part time employees (less benefits, having to work multiple jobs to make ends meet). We've made it harder for small businesses to start and thrive, leaving you little choice but to take a job in a corporation where you are just a cog in the machine.
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Old 24-06-2020, 11:23   #42
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Re: Still Working (and winning) at Age 82

Don't hate me but :
I retired at 53, lifetime pension income, etc., etc.,
How did this happen ? Dumb luck, Frugality, and hard work, mostly the dumb luck part starting with dropping out of college.
How can it be replicated today ? Not a clue, I don't think it's possible, that's the "old" economy.
In 1973 my salary was $880/month and was pretty generous due to the hazardous nature of the work, $8,800/month in 2003, same lifestyle, inflation is a bitch.
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Old 24-06-2020, 11:26   #43
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Re: Still Working (and winning) at Age 82

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Yes, anecdote can show what is possible. It doesn't tell you much about what is probable.

Raising financial literacy is tengental at best. Sure, it's probably true. But that's not what you asserted in your statement. You said: "the majority of families can get by just fine on a single income and that hasn't really changed." This is a false statement based on actual evidence.

If you had said "some families..." or "it is possible...", we'd be sharing thumbs-ups. But your claim (apparently supported by others here) that all we need to do is give people better financial training belies the mountains of data and research that shows exactly as I quoted from the summary article:

People don't need financial training. They need more money.
A study that calculates what the average person spends, gives us no clue about if people make enough money to live comfortably. If everyone is overspending, it doesn't tell us what they can live on.

Financial literacy is the core problem.

You are stating, that we need people to make more money because they can't afford to live on what they make...so logically, if we have determined that it is possible to live comfortably on what they make, the problem must not be a lack of earning. The logical assumption then is it must be what they are spending and that leads us to straight to financial literacy.
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Old 24-06-2020, 11:34   #44
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Re: Still Working (and winning) at Age 82

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Don't hate me but :
I retired at 53, lifetime pension income, etc., etc.,
How did this happen ? Dumb luck, Frugality, and hard work, mostly the dumb luck part starting with dropping out of college.
How can it be replicated today ? Not a clue, I don't think it's possible, that's the "old" economy.
In 1973 my salary was $880/month and was pretty generous due to the hazardous nature of the work, $8,800/month in 2003, same lifestyle, inflation is a bitch.
Not hating but just out of curiosity, is your pension plan fully funded? There are a lot of boomers out there who think they have it made with a pension.

In small numbers, there are backstops but there are a lot of pensions in rough shape. If you see large numbers go belly up, expect at least a cut in the monthly payment and in a worst case scenario, payments could stop all together.

The reason I bring this up is I'm amazed at the number of people I've talked to who think they don't have to pay attention because the pension people will take care of everything.
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Old 24-06-2020, 11:39   #45
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Re: Still Working (and winning) at Age 82

Again, for many, it's not about the money or lack of how to handle money.

It's about living a full and interesting life while learning and growing in the process.

Everyone doesn't look to retire early as some sort of goal.

I'm not sure why this is such a hard concept for some to grasp.

Also budgets are pretty simple to set up where you can save as much as you need to retire early especially if you have the right job.

It's not rocket science, and as for the expensive phones, etc, many like that stuff while others of us have it paid for by our companies.......at least the $100/month phone with unlimited data!
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