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Nautes · 03-06-2023, 11:35

For me the question is: Can I trust him?

Can you trust him? If so he should trust you and provide an accounting of all the monies. If he cannot then you cannot trust him.

Ballsnall · 03-06-2023, 21:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nautes

For me the question is: Can I trust him?

Can you trust him? If so he should trust you and provide an accounting of all the monies. If he cannot then you cannot trust him.

Chotu have him $21,000 up front so he does trust his rigger. The rigger has also itemized all the costs, that's not the issue.

The issue is Choto insulted his rigger by distrusting him, even though he didn't do so on purpose his rigger was offended.

A simple sorry mate my bad, goes a long way to overcoming these situations, not paying out on him for seeking advice but this is CF so.......

**skipperpete** · 03-06-2023, 21:14

I hope the rigger isn’t following Chotu on the forum. I’m curious to know what $21,000 buys if you already have a mast and furler?

Lucky Luke 1 · 03-06-2023, 22:58

Sorry I'm a noob with boat trades people but why the hell would you give them tens of thousands of dollars upfront for?
They either do the work and then give you an itemized bill at the end or they create an account at the stores you need stuff from which you then pay.

It just doesn't seem normal to give someone tens of thousands of dollars up front.

Celestialsailor · 04-06-2023, 00:48

Maybe this tactic would work with the Rigger...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohDB5gbtaEQ

Nautes · 04-06-2023, 07:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chotu

well, there were ground rules. There was a giant spreadsheet with every little piece that I needed for my rigging.

that was where the $15,000 figure came from.

it bumped to 21,000+ because $6000+ furler got added.

from the beginning he was going to buy some of this stuff on that original $15,000 list in order to get work done while I was underway when we bumped into each other.

He was supposed to be purchasing those items with it and completing work on the mast while I was underway. I don’t have any idea what was purchased and nothing has been completed yet.

granted this guy has been very busy. So maybe he just didn’t have time. But there was an agreement. Written. In emails. And there is also a Google Docs spreadsheet filled with all of the items and the amounts.

we didn’t have a clear rule about reporting. But we had a clear rule about where the money was going.

When I have worked with tradesmen remodeling houses, I review a list of needed materials. They purchase what we agree is needed. I inventory the items and invoice and pay them accordingly.

StoneCrab · 12-06-2023, 06:59

I know this comment will not be helpful, so apologies in advance, but if you don't like this type of accounting, wait until the lawyers get involved. Take your situation and amplify it tenfold. They are real pros at billing for nothing and doing less.

My best experiences have been with people who are just getting into the industry. They still have their values and are trying to build their reputation. They care, work hard and fix what they mess up.

The old pros may know better but like all of us, they have a history of customers who didn't treat them fairly....so it goes both ways. If the rigger got mad and stalked off, allow him some time to deal with his anger and then ask him out for a beer to parlay a way forward. Let him express his point of view and try to find a solution that gets your project finished.

We generally get more done if we treat each other as humans. Which goes beyond just the transaction.

I think in your shoes, I would have asked him to finish the other work first before moving on to the VHF. At least then your 20k could be accounted for before adding more to the project and more expenses.

RSH · 12-06-2023, 07:02

When I have an apparently rational conversation with someone and they lose their s***, it tells me that they're either:

1. Hiding something that they feel bad about and they're projecting it on me
2. Their communication skills have failed leaving them only to shout as an option
3. I didn't listen and now they're mad.

It sounds like your situation is a combination of the three.

nofacey · 12-06-2023, 07:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wotname

From the other side of the world -

You are stressed with your own work plus the work on the boat.

You and the rigger had a trusted relationship.

The rigger is stressed with his other work plus the work on your boat.

He fronts up with what in his mind, is a perfectly good proposal and given the previous trust, doesn't expect any objection, he just wants to get your agreement and the $300. You dig in and confronts him with (probably) some silent unspoken aggression; something in your words and body language and that smashes the trust he had in you. He is sure the now broken trust is your fault and his job (on your boat) is now made more stressful, he isn't happy. Likewise you ain't happy and you are sure it is his fault.

Trust has been broken.

You only have 2 choices -

1. Operate in the new paradigm where things have to be accounted for in spreadsheets and the written word

or

2. Mend the dispute and re-establish trust. As the rigger believes you are the problem, you are the one who has to take the first step. As mentioned upthread, take the $300, a gift (alcohol/donuts/cakes/whatever) and an apology to the rigger ASAP. With any luck, he may have cooled off and is thinking you might have right after all. If so, he will accept your apology and maybe offer his own. Even if he doesn't, he will be more willing to do job properly.

I'm reminded of the short verse from Rumi -

Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing,
there is a field. I’ll meet you there.

When the soul lies down in that grass,
the world is too full to talk about.
Ideas, language, even the phrase ‘each other’
doesn’t make any sense.

Find and meet your rigger in the field away from the world of right and wrong. Don't let your (and his) stress override common sense.

Do the above!! Soon!

**s/v Jedi** · 12-06-2023, 07:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by RSH

When I have an apparently rational conversation with someone and they lose their s***, it tells me that they're either:

1. Hiding something that they feel bad about and they're projecting it on me
2. Their communication skills have failed leaving them only to shout as an option
3. I didn't listen and now they're mad.

It sounds like your situation is a combination of the three.

It’s a matter of perception… what is normal to the spider, is chaos to the fly

P3sailor · 12-06-2023, 08:49

You're not wrong here. It appears there's a generation out there that will gladly take your money but somehow these people see nothing wrong with handing out a bill with no breakdown of expenditures and labor while expecting the customer to pay, no questions asked. These same individuals get upset when challenged to provide a detailed list/breakdown of the bill prior to payment. There's nothing wrong with what you did, stick to your guns.
Hind sight is 20/20 but it would have been best had you stated that any billing must be broken down to the dollar prior to payment.

Knotical · 12-06-2023, 09:03

After reading through this thread, and other related threads, it amazes me how you can tell people’s life experiences, their upbringings, approach to people, and possibly their line of work by reading their responses. These observations are obviously unscientific, but very interesting.

In a silo - yes, one would ask for all accounting documentation, maybe you’ll scare the guy and make him cave in; in real world - you take it as it comes and adapt to the situation, or else one would risk being left without a sailboat. Isn’t it amazing to have a choice? 😊

limte · 12-06-2023, 10:19

I've been reading these threads with both amusement and alarm, and I have to agree that the continued engagement with the OP has been both enabling and detrimental.

In the psychological world, the behavior would be most likely defined as "borderline". Such behavior is characterized by dramatic swings of mood, and the forming of relationships in which idealization changes to condemnation in rapid and sometimes repetitive cycles. Additional borderline behavior, includes the constant need to expose emotions, attitudes, and observations, which generally lead to conflict, and result in a troubled relationship to others, as well as the inability to really accept responsibility for problematical behaviors. Black and white thinking, clearly on display in many of these posts, is another earmark of borderline behavior.

As is the case with a certain politician--that will go unnamed--it may be best to avoid being drawn into these interactions, even if they initially appear to be technical in nature, since they almost invariably devolved into emotional interactions, which, I believe, benefit neither the OP nor other board members.

Night_Sailor · 12-06-2023, 11:25

Sounds like you have not has an accurate accounting of everything. I had the same thing happen to me, and the worker kept asking for money and I finally had to cut him off. He stopped working.

The solution is a detailed spreadsheet, and daily tracking. It just confusing when money is going out and check marks are not made against work performed and parts and materials.