Apparently I am losing my people skills.

[SailingHarmonie]

There are many different ways people interact with the trades and system experts. Some people have almost all good experiences. Some people have almost all bad experiences. Some people have worked their whole career and NEVER ONCE worked for a good boss. Others have rarely ever had a bad boss. Some people NEVER have a good employee, others rarely have a bad one. There is usually a trend in those traits...

Lots of reasons people have problems with their contractors.

Some people are really bad at picking people to do the work. For whatever reason they can not recognize the behavior traits that should be red-flags up front. The lowest bid is not always the best choice.

Setting up a business relationship with people are willing to bend or break important rules, even if it is to your benefit, rarely ends well. "What they do with you, they do to you."

Some people are just terrible at managing contract workers. I know some who are totally passive, and accept everything they are told, and others who are just total jerks, yelling and screaming over the least little thing. Neither approach is likely to be the optimum at getting what you want.

On our boat we are really good at the "good cop/bad cop" scheme when it is needed. I can handle the technical side of the discussions in detail and make sure that side of things goes well. My partner is really talented at tough, but fair, financial and schedule negotiations. Who plays "bad cop" depends on where the biggest issues in the project are.

When you are dealing with a busy contractor, who is well known and respected in this business he likely has more customers than he can handle. It is NOT in your interest to be among the more difficult customers to deal with.

Heaven knows I have had customers who I would prefer not to deal with a second time.

When I worked at a sailing school we had over 80 instructors. The office kept a "secret" list of which customers should not be put with which instructors. Every instructor who worked there long enough had at LEAST one known mismatch. Which was fine, that was expected, people are complicated. We had more than one customer who had a list of "never again" instructors a page long. People who were just impossible to get along with. I can assure you not ONE of those problem customers thought that any of the issues was their own fault.

Every business out there is not run by fools, idiots and jerks. If that is your actual experience, then the issue might likely to be on the other side of the table. Same as a contractor, if every single one of your customers is a PITA, maybe there is a reason that has nothing to do with the customers?

[Statistical]

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

Chotu:

Just where is the 15 grand you say remains? What is the number of the account in the banking establishment where it was deposited? Don't answer that - it's just my advice to you that there'd damn well better be one! Who has signing authority on that account? It had damn well better be YOU and YOU ONLY!!!.

If "your rigger" is worth his salt as a rigger, he will have enuff financial strength to buy, and pay for from his OWN funds, what is required to do the job he's contracted to do. When the stuff he bought has been installed on your boat and the installation has been approved by you - but not before - the rigger should give you a formal invoice for that work. If the labour charge showing on the invoice is reasonable, you pay it BY CHEQUE! Of which you keep a photocopy. And you staple that photocopy to the invoice it relates to. And you put those documents in your files. And you keep those files in a safe place till the boat has been finished and launched!

If you work on any other basis, you are gonna get screwed!

So wake up to the fact that you are not only building a boat. YOU ARE RUNNING A BOAT YARD!! That the only customer your boat yard has is you, yourself, doesn't alter that. You still have to run it like a boat yard. Emotion has no place in running a business! For your own sake, and for the sake of every single person who gets involved in it in any way whatsoever.

All the best

TrentePieds

Time & Material jobs are very common. The idea no customer ever outlays a single penny until the job is complete is nonsense. You are certainly free to require that and plenty of riggers will simply say no. Regardless that wasn't the agreement the OP had so trying to change it after the fact would turn a bad working relationship into a non-existent one.

[Shrew]

It sounds like he took his labor off the top. What is left is earmarked for the rest of the materials for the project. We're talking about a new purchase (new materials + additional labor). If he takes from the balance for materials, he'll go over his expenses and still have to come back to you for the cash at the end.

It's somewhat reasonable to pay for the change order, but also know that your rigger runs a bit of a Ponzi scheme on his own business finances. This coupled with collections issues is how small businesses go out of business. (I gave him a deposit and he never came back).

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by Knotical

I disagree with this, he’s not some law or accounting firm where they will send you expense sheet every few days; there are hundreds of things that he needs to get to put up a rig, some may be ordered waiting to be delivered, some may need to be ordered when necessary, if he’s got as good a name as Chotu suggested in previous threads he must be doing something right.

In my experience with riggers they will give a ballpark figure for a job rather than an exact figure as they just don’t know what else that job may entail - material costs change over time and even labor hours may change depending on certain modifications that need to be made.

This rigger is already hired by Chotu, and if he’s as good as it seems (hope he got prior references) I suggest to give him his space and the necessary funds and let him do his job, a big project like this may be causing him some stress and pesky behavior on Chotu’s part will only make matters worse.

Finally, Chotu, as you asked in your OP I would say to look inside, you may have the right reasoning to lash out at him but the approach was wrong, and reading your previous threads this is not the first time you have had a problem with someone, your wish to never need help from someone in the future also leads me to think that you may not be that good of a people person you think you are.

I didn’t lash out at him. That’s the thing. Not at all. He got mad at what to me seemed like out of nowhere to me. I don’t think you read the thread correctly. I didn’t do any lashing at all. None.

The approach was definitely wrong because I was deep deep in tons of arguments and disagreements at the same time with multiple people when I had to open the door and talk to him. He was probably seeing those emotions on my face. I didn’t feel any type of way toward him. Other than that I was trying to rush through it because I was under a lot of pressure when he kind of surprised me.


My wish to never contract with anyone again comes from many, many years of really really lousy people who don’t do a good job. That’s what it comes from. You bring your car in to get fixed? They break three other things. If you do it yourself at least you know it’s going right. It’s no different than Production Catamaran versus custom. The people just don’t care when they are building your boat if it’s production. Their life isn’t on the line. They don’t care. Same thing with RVs. Bring it in to get some thing fixed? If you can’t even get in there? They’re going to break three other things that you have to fix yourself anyway. It’s just not worth it. That’s completely unrelated to this situation. This guy is good. He does a good job. He knows ridiculous amounts. So you’re conflating two things that are completely different together here.

But having to stress and strain to keep a relationship when you are a customer? No. That’s really not for me. My money is supposed to do that. At least that was true in the old days. We used to have something called customer service. Where the customer got treated well and you got to get a bunch of money. I guess I am getting old like I keep saying. you shouldn’t have to woo and wine and dine the person you are paying in order to get something to work out properly. Yet all over this forum people are saying that’s what you should be doing. Well, I’m not interested in that. And I’m not going to do that in the future. I will do that here. But I will not do that in the future. I will just not get contractors because it’s not worthwhile. Again, that’s not what I’m talking about in this case. We are just talking generally now at this point. In this case it’s different. Because this guy is very good. Most are not.

I am not a good customer. And you know what? I don’t care. I’m not here to baby people I’m buying things from. Screw that. That’s not how it works. I would just assume do it myself rather than go through all of that extra crap. It’s faster anyway. And once again, I’m not talking about this situation I’m talking about general. Like how I fix my own vehicle. Fix my own RV. Build my own boat. All of that. Get a much better deal doing it yourself. Even if you count your time.

I do just fine with people. But not when I am the customer and they suck.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by SailingHarmonie

There are many different ways people interact with the trades and system experts. Some people have almost all good experiences. Some people have almost all bad experiences. Some people have worked their whole career and NEVER ONCE worked for a good boss. Others have rarely ever had a bad boss. Some people NEVER have a good employee, others rarely have a bad one. There is usually a trend in those traits...

Lots of reasons people have problems with their contractors.

Some people are really bad at picking people to do the work. For whatever reason they can not recognize the behavior traits that should be red-flags up front. The lowest bid is not always the best choice.

Setting up a business relationship with people are willing to bend or break important rules, even if it is to your benefit, rarely ends well. "What they do with you, they do to you."

Some people are just terrible at managing contract workers. I know some who are totally passive, and accept everything they are told, and others who are just total jerks, yelling and screaming over the least little thing. Neither approach is likely to be the optimum at getting what you want.

On our boat we are really good at the "good cop/bad cop" scheme when it is needed. I can handle the technical side of the discussions in detail and make sure that side of things goes well. My partner is really talented at tough, but fair, financial and schedule negotiations. Who plays "bad cop" depends on where the biggest issues in the project are.

When you are dealing with a busy contractor, who is well known and respected in this business he likely has more customers than he can handle. It is NOT in your interest to be among the more difficult customers to deal with.

Heaven knows I have had customers who I would prefer not to deal with a second time.

When I worked at a sailing school we had over 80 instructors. The office kept a "secret" list of which customers should not be put with which instructors. Every instructor who worked there long enough had at LEAST one known mismatch. Which was fine, that was expected, people are complicated. We had more than one customer who had a list of "never again" instructors a page long. People who were just impossible to get along with. I can assure you not ONE of those problem customers thought that any of the issues was their own fault.

Every business out there is not run by fools, idiots and jerks. If that is your actual experience, then the issue might likely to be on the other side of the table. Same as a contractor, if every single one of your customers is a PITA, maybe there is a reason that has nothing to do with the customers?

This.

I don’t know where to find people. I don’t know where to pick people. And I think a lot of people on the forum don’t really understand what it’s like to be a cruiser or a traveler. Many many people here don’t travel full time. They stay in one town. I don’t have a network of people. I’m a traveler.

So I have to just take whoever I can get basically. I can’t get my friend to do something. I can’t get the local person with a great reputation to do something. I’m completely alone.

And I just accept whatever is going on for the most part, and then if it goes bad I start to get frustrated. But I don’t really say much out loud to anyone. I just bitch about it on here. Lol. So I’m probably one of the ones that just rolls over actually. Because I’m just trying to get the project to work. It seems like whenever I do push, I get into an enormous fight with somebody. That’s not productive. So I don’t do it. I try to keep everything smooth and easy.

I also don’t know how to pick people. At all. Doesn’t matter how much I pay, it’s always the same result. Again, I’m not talking about this particular situation. I’m talking about the history that has been brought up. Like those metal people. Took me over a year to get my foward crossbeam welded. And then when I did, they did kind of a bad job. They made mistakes. Some things are crooked. Not cool.

And then the riggers in Florida. Nice people and all. But they had me come all the way over there and sit there for like six weeks only to not be able to do the project because they didn’t have that capability. Why didn’t they tell me that? Then they tried to charge me rent for having to wait for them. I always get ripped off like that. Going to them cost me about two months of my life and around $10,000? That counts the fuel, paying for the mast to be transported, and the money they charged me to do literally nothing at all except look at the project. There were no changes made to my boat and I didn’t buy anything through them and I still had to pay. Because they would hold my mast hostage otherwise

I obviously have no idea how to do marine related contracting stuff. None whatsoever.

[Knotical]

Originally Posted by Chotu

I didn’t lash out at him. That’s the thing. Not at all. He got mad at what to me seemed like out of nowhere to me. I don’t think you read the thread correctly. I didn’t do any lashing at all. None.

The approach was definitely wrong because I was deep deep in tons of arguments and disagreements at the same time with multiple people when I had to open the door and talk to him. He was probably seeing those emotions on my face. I didn’t feel any type of way toward him. Other than that I was trying to rush through it because I was under a lot of pressure when he kind of surprised me.


My wish to never contract with anyone again comes from many, many years of really really lousy people who don’t do a good job. That’s what it comes from. You bring your car in to get fixed? They break three other things. If you do it yourself at least you know it’s going right. It’s no different than Production Catamaran versus custom. The people just don’t care when they are building your boat if it’s production. Their life isn’t on the line. They don’t care. Same thing with RVs. Bring it in to get some thing fixed? If you can’t even get in there? They’re going to break three other things that you have to fix yourself anyway. It’s just not worth it. That’s completely unrelated to this situation. This guy is good. He does a good job. He knows ridiculous amounts. So you’re conflating two things that are completely different together here.

But having to stress and strain to keep a relationship when you are a customer? No. That’s really not for me. My money is supposed to do that. At least that was true in the old days. We used to have something called customer service. Where the customer got treated well and you got to get a bunch of money. I guess I am getting old like I keep saying. you shouldn’t have to woo and wine and dine the person you are paying in order to get something to work out properly. Yet all over this forum people are saying that’s what you should be doing. Well, I’m not interested in that. And I’m not going to do that in the future. I will do that here. But I will not do that in the future. I will just not get contractors because it’s not worthwhile. Again, that’s not what I’m talking about in this case. We are just talking generally now at this point. In this case it’s different. Because this guy is very good. Most are not.

I am not a good customer. And you know what? I don’t care. I’m not here to baby people I’m buying things from. Screw that. That’s not how it works. I would just assume do it myself rather than go through all of that extra crap. It’s faster anyway. And once again, I’m not talking about this situation I’m talking about general. Like how I fix my own vehicle. Fix my own RV. Build my own boat. All of that. Get a much better deal doing it yourself. Even if you count your time.

I do just fine with people. But not when I am the customer and they suck.

Agree with certain things above, if you have had really bad experiences in the past you obviously become skeptical of everyone that you have never dealt with, it is just human nature, but it also leads to bias and soured relationship where you haven't given enough time and space to prove oneself.

I don't agree with certain posters that suggested to buy him a beer, yours is a working relationship and being a customer/client your money should talk, how it talks though is up to both of you.

There is not place for emotions in a professional relationship, if the situation becomes tensed it is up to both of you to resolve it, may posters including you suggesting you should apologize to him makes me think he was in the right, regardless of who was right or wrong he currently has the upper hand, as if he ditches you you are left without a rig, and hence a sailboat! Why hasn't be purchased everything for the project yet? Is HE seeing a red flag?

The point that I was trying to get across is that not all trades are the same and people who are saying that you should get a written report of every dollar spent while the work is being done are just wrong, one cannot account for complications that come up when the work is being done.

Even if this project cost goes above (and it will) what you initially accounted for, it is worth having it completed and get on with your life.

[Chotu]

Also, it might be noted that I run businesses. I have large groups of people I work with continuously. I manage the managers. I manage employees. And I don’t do it with an iron fist. I do it through collaboration and getting people on board. And I’m pretty damn good at that. Which is one of the reasons I worded the title like I did. I have really good people skills actually. Management skills. I can easily rally the employees and make sure everyone is happy and enjoying their job and wants to do a good job for the common goal. I treat everyone as an individual human being, create a professional, caring work environment. And people love it. I don’t have a problem doing that. That’s why this is so frustrating to me.

I have a lot of people skills. Just not with contractors apparently. And you know what? Even in the white-collar world I have the same problem. I have tried to outsource projects to India? Every last one of them has failed. I kid you not. I have lost tons of money doing that.

So I think I have trouble relating to people that are not part of the sort of family and within the organization. Because all of my outsourcing has failed in India. I’m not alone with that. I have really good company. Most projects fail in India. But all of mine have.

With employees, I don’t micromanage. I guess you have to micromanage contractors. Otherwise they’re going to rip you off. Which is what seems to happen to me every time. And again, that is not me talking about this particular situation. It’s more of wondering why I’m doing so badly in this situation. I don’t feel like he’s going to rip me off. He’s a very upfront guy he has had ample opportunity to rip me off and he has been nothing but truthful I think. Lol

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by Knotical

Agree with certain things above, if you have had really bad experiences in the past you obviously become skeptical of everyone that you have never dealt with, it is just human nature, but it also leads to bias and soured relationship where you haven't given enough time and space to prove oneself.

I don't agree with certain posters that suggested to buy him a beer, yours is a working relationship and being a customer/client your money should talk, how it talks though is up to both of you.

There is not place for emotions in a professional relationship, if the situation becomes tensed it is up to both of you to resolve it, may posters including you suggesting you should apologize to him makes me think he was in the right, regardless of who was right or wrong he currently has the upper hand, as if he ditches you you are left without a rig, and hence a sailboat! Why hasn't be purchased everything for the project yet? Is HE seeing a red flag?

The point that I was trying to get across is that not all trades are the same and people who are saying that you should get a written report of every dollar spent while the work is being done are just wrong, one cannot account for complications that come up when the work is being done.

Even if this project cost goes above (and it will) what you initially accounted for, it is worth having it completed and get on with your life.

Absolutely. And I have already done this. In this case, not talking about all of the other crap that’s frustrating me as you can see, I have already apologized and told him that I was wrapped up in some hectic things and didn’t mean to put off a confrontational front.

I agree completely with everything in your post. And that’s the action I have already taken.

[odonnellryan]

Unfortunately, I haven't had many great experiences hiring people to do work on my boat, except from reputable sailmakers (Precision is great to work with).

From too-long stays, to cost overruns, to not using quality materials for a VHF cable run, I've learned to do it myself if I can.

[ttex]

Robbing Peter to pay Paul.

Maybe you picked a bad tradesman.

I am a tradesman btw. A good one. And there are not many. Good ones, that is.

[sailorboy1]

Originally Posted by Chotu

You kind of are. But what’s the pattern you notice?

That no one seems to want to work for you. This rigging has been "last" item for months based on your posts. You couldn't even find someone to do it and now you say this guy doesn't want to work with you.

You say you are too busy. Yet have lots of time to post on CF instead of communicating with your rigger to work out your issues etc . Your issue is only going to be resolved between the rigger and you, not here.

[HeinSdL]

I'd say go easy on the OP but on the whole I find this read a bit surreal. There seems to be a major issue here which is partially a result of being time stressed and which is sensitive in terms of the relationship between client and contractor. Having handed over large sums of money in good faith also was probably not helpful.

I would be inclined to not broadcast to the world at this length here on CF because well, time is especially precious right now, it would not be good to have the contractor stumble upon this chat and, to be frank, this is not a place which is particularly enlightened leading to just more stress.

My message to the OP: drop all non-essential tasks including the nonsense here on CF and focus on the problem which needs to be solved. I for one genuinely & simply look forward to hearing back with the news of a successful & happy outcome.

[skipperpete]

Chotu, on a previous thread you proposed a solution to your boatbuilding and contractor woes, at the time, I didn’t offer any useful input but a lot of forum members gave really good and wise advice regarding both the future of this project and your own physical and mental health. After this latest incident I reckon it’s time to revisit that thread, take your own advice and sell the boat.

[Fore and Aft]

Chotu I am going to politely say it sounds like you're having a mental episode. We have a neighbour like you and occasionally he flips and spends a period of time being a real ahole to the world. Then one day he will yell a greeting to us and suddenly he's all good again.
I wasn't saying wine and dine your rigger but having a good relationship with him is important. It's not hard. Like if I met you one of the first questions I would ask is "How did you go with the stoner girlfriend" You would probably reply with a yarn how she smoked a reefer laced with horse tranquilizer and tried to choke you to death. Bang we're off, we've made a connection had a laugh and the rest is easy.
You're definitely a negative Nancy, production cats are not that bad. I have surveyed hundreds that have done offshore passages, most still look like new. Like you pointed out lots of good trades are booked out. This year I have had to use businesses I normally don't use. My car needed a big service this year (beyond my ability) a $1000 quote quickly turned into $3500. It's not my usual mechanic but instead of being pissed l am grateful they found the other issues and fixed them.
I read all the threads you start and I am starting to wonder if you secretly love all the drama. Maybe you're sourcing material for Jerry Springer Afloat?
Cheers

[Chotu]

Bros: I was venting OK? Wow. I was complaining about the state of service these days. And I guarantee you 90% of the people on this forum feel the same way about it. Everyone sucks that you try to get any service from for your car or your RV or your boat. They are awful. They are the worst people on earth most of the time.

Case in point? I brought my truck in so I would have more time to work on the boat last winter. Brought it in for some brakes and to get my starter rebuilt.
They lost my starter and dropped a $120 Chinese eBay starter in instead and tried to pass that off for my $600 Denso starter. They also took 8-10 weeks to do this.

I would hardly say that’s an episode. Although it is an episode in our society.

And now just because I had a little bit of a issue one day with my Rigger I should be selling the boat? Really? Jealous? This was pretty good thread at first I got a lot of really good advice . But now it’s just getting weird.

Everything is fine with the Rigger now. We will make the deadline. We are good. The earlier part of this thread was spot on.

Signing off of this thread for good. And continuing on the highly technical rigging ones. Feel free to talk amongst yourselves. I’m not reading it.

Bye haters.