Twin headsails for trade wind sailing

[slug]

Originally Posted by tarian

Lots of people wing on wing ,crossing the Pond and many more with mains sail out on a preventer ,not seen many with a spinnaker of a cruising shute , too light material for the winds , it might be the case of just getting out and practising both methods to find out how your boat deals with this, all boats are different and many will swear by one to the other but only you will know because it is your boat.
Reefing down a main is not to bad short handed , as always reef her in at night ,to be safe and then you can always judge in daylight and see the weather ahead if you need to reef early.
For chafe maybe putting some good chafe protection on the wire will help.

Sometimes I use the spinnaker ...light wind , daylight, hand steering

In general it’s a pain in the ass

Twin headsails do work ...but you need a special setup or a special sail

[stormalong]

Originally Posted by rom

It would be cheaper and more effective to buy a spinnaker. More seriously you need a good auto pilot for DDW with two head sails. It works fine with my raymarine EV400 in rather calm seas, not sure that would work in 20kts & 2+ meters following sea. OTHO I can fly the spinnaker from 140 to 140AWA, super easy on the AP. And that is basically how I crossed the atlantic.

Spinnakers are too light for trade wind sailing. Squalls are common and blowing out a spinnaker is very expensive. Having a roller furling jib and rigging a pole with three tie points to make it rigid & having the sheet slip through the end of the pole makes it easy to reduce sail quickly from the cockpit. A spinnaker means foredeck work in rough conditions.

Ocean passages invariably means short handed cruising. What crew you have will be spread out for 24 hour coverage. The ability to reduce sail from the cockpit by just one person and be able to do it quickly is very important.

Using the boom as a second pole is very common. I always sailed wing and wing with the main and jib but many serious voyagers have double pole rigs. Many set their poles before leaving port and don't take them down until after arrival.

[tarian]

Originally Posted by slug

Sometimes I use the spinnaker ...light wind , daylight, hand steering

In general it’s a pain in the ass

Twin headsails do work ...but you need a special setup or a special sail

The OP is crossing the pond in trade winds and if they hit the trades right there not going to fly a spinnaker, all boats heading East to West in the Atlantic will fly wing on wing or mainsail out and Genoa polled , but again it is a Moody 39 and unless the forum has sailed this boat no one will know but the OP to find out what really works for them , this is why one must test it before you go , this is sensible

[Singularity]

Do be familiar with the twizzle rig; reportedly attenuates roll:
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...at-121884.html
https://youtu.be/inpr3r3Fw18
https://youtu.be/sy53gIOrE40
https://youtu.be/cfFK0giF5xc

[captmikem]

Originally Posted by Adelie

The problem is that you then have to fly the spinnaker to get any benefit from it.
The advantage of the twins is one edge of each sail is secured making them much easier to handle short-handed.

This is your OPINION, not a fact. I do not recall how many times I have made the crossing from the Canaries to the West Indies, but most of the times I carried a chute most of the way. And most times it was two of us. Spinnakers are NOT hard to handle. Especially with a sock and a martin breaker. Both easy to rig. This continual dislike of chutes gives people the wrong idea. Below 20kts downwind I always have a chute up. It is like people afraid to leave the cockpit. Just get out and do it. Nothing is going to eat you.

I have tried twins crossing the Pacific when I had no chutes. ROLL ROLL ROLL! Broad reach with the genny on a pole and Gybe is much better, (for me) easier on the gear and easier on the vane or autopilot, and easier on crew.

I try to always carry two poles because I like cutters and it is much easier to have a pole on either side.

Don't be afraid of chutes. They are wonderful sails. On a circumnavigation with an 80' cutter I probably used my chutes 50% of the time. It helps to oversheet it a bit, (saves you playing with it), and if much of a sea is up I choke the guy down a bit.

Don't be afraid of chutes!

M

[Cpt Pat]

P.S. One word of caution: if you fly twins, make sure everything associated with your backstay can take the strain. The center of effort is very far forward (which creates the self-steering tendency) and so nearly all the forces are transferred to your backstay.

Unlike other sail configurations, the forces aren't distributed to several areas of the rig. The first few times out, I left a tensiometer attached to my backstay, and monitored it continuously.

[rom]

Originally Posted by stormalong

Spinnakers are too light for trade wind sailing. Squalls are common and blowing out a spinnaker is very expensive. Having a roller furling jib and rigging a pole with three tie points to make it rigid & having the sheet slip through the end of the pole makes it easy to reduce sail quickly from the cockpit. A spinnaker means foredeck work in rough conditions.

Ocean passages invariably means short handed cruising. What crew you have will be spread out for 24 hour coverage. The ability to reduce sail from the cockpit by just one person and be able to do it quickly is very important.

Using the boom as a second pole is very common. I always sailed wing and wing with the main and jib but many serious voyagers have double pole rigs. Many set their poles before leaving port and don't take them down until after arrival.

Though I disagree that spinnakers are too light or too powerful for trade winds I forgot I have a cat and the OP has a monohull... Spinnaker are much easier to handle on a cat especially DDW. Sorry for the noise, happy crossing, over and out.

[Michael Pope]

My two bits worth. (1) Spinnakers are not for short handed sailing. Too many accidents and deaths when sudden squalls come along specialty at night .
Too much chafe on lines due to rolling.
(2) Rig the boat with two headsails like a Cutter with a single reef in the main.
Find the wind heading and set of sails that give you the best speed made good
when jibeing down wind . You may sail further but you get there with no broken gear and often ahead of the dead down wind guy AND NO BOAT ROLL
Gusts in the Squall what have you Lower the Genoa. Problem free
Better fishing . Less bumps and bruises and you see more lovely Ocean
Twin boomed out Headsails were popular but still not comfortable when Yachts were lead mines and were incapable of exceeding !.3 LWL as their full keels were too inefficient. Also their rudders. I will get a lot of screams in reply BUT I AM RIGHT! So Said the Pope Michael Pope

[Cpt Pat]

Originally Posted by slug

Twin headsails do work ...but you need a special setup or a special sail

I used two mismatched reaching jibs for quite a while. They worked well enough for my taste. I just couldn't get up to hull speed with less than 12 knots of actual wind. All that matters is that the hanks don't interfere on the forestay.

One of the twins I use now is a 160% genoa that came with the boat. I just took it to my sail maker and had him make a duplicate with alternating hank positions. Nothing special there.

It works for me. YMMV.

[slug]

Originally Posted by Michael Pope

My two bits worth. (1) Spinnakers are not for short handed sailing. Too many accidents and deaths when sudden squalls come along specialty at night .
Too much chafe on lines due to rolling.
(2) Rig the boat with two headsails like a Cutter with a single reef in the main.
Find the wind heading and set of sails that give you the best speed made good
when jibeing down wind . You may sail further but you get there with no broken gear and often ahead of the dead down wind guy AND NO BOAT ROLL
Gusts in the Squall what have you Lower the Genoa. Problem free
Better fishing . Less bumps and bruises and you see more lovely Ocean
Twin boomed out Headsails were popular but still not comfortable when Yachts were lead mines and were incapable of exceeding !.3 LWL as their full keels were too inefficient. Also their rudders. I will get a lot of screams in reply BUT I AM RIGHT! So Said the Pope Michael Pope

The secret formula for crossing oceans is...

Keep up a good speed

Make life on the boat comfortable

DONT BREAK ANYTHING !!!

Spinnakers can be tricky and you might break something ..be careful

The other piece of sailing equipment that takes a beating on a long passage is the boom and boom vang goosenecks

Always sail with a preventer rigged and immobilize the boom..no movement

Avoid vang sheeting , overloading the vang gooseneck ..by rigging a second preventer that pulls down..like a vang

Some folks remove the solid vang completely to long passages

[Cpt Pat]

Originally Posted by Michael Pope

[...] when Yachts were lead mines and were incapable of exceeding !.3 LWL as their full keels were too inefficient. Also their rudders. I will get a lot of screams in reply BUT I AM RIGHT! So Said the Pope Michael Pope

I'll keep that in mind while I'm surfing at 3 or 4 knots over hull speed in my full keeled boat, and doing better than hull speed on flat water. Actually, going dead downwind with twins, I'm not sure I even need my keel-hung rudder. The rudder doesn't get used at all. I just fold up my tiller. The full keel provides plenty of yaw stability all by itself. Do you spend a lot of effort on steering?

[nrwian]

I use Poled out 115% Genoa one side and a crushing code 0 sheeted of the end of the boom the other . Have Ovni43 with inline masthead rig and aft set lowers . Set this boom just of the lowers with a preventer . Works from 12 knots true up . More sail area then main and Genoa but not quite as much as a spinnaker . Code 0 is 72 sqm and spinnaker is 110 main 35 . Much easier to manage than a spinnaker short handed and not far short in performance . Boat is centreboarder so have it up down wind . No rolling just a fast comfy ride . Code sail is on a furler so still easy to shorten sail quickly and easily if required .

[Cpt Pat]

... Steering a fin-keeled boat downwind always reminds me of landing a tailwheel airplane: it continually wants to swap ends and go stern-first. Like tailwheel airplanes, it's nice to have an effective rudder -- but it's easier not to need it. One learns to be very good at tap-dancing on the rudder pedals, or wearing out your elbow on the wheel. Except, when landing a "taildragger" the experience only lasts a few seconds. On a fin keeled boat, it persists for the entire voyage.


Inherent instability. Like balancing a broom by the end of its handle.


Just my experience...

[Franziska]

Great post and very good informative videos. Thank you.
On a cat it's even simpler, we can get by without the poles :-)

Originally Posted by Singularity

Do be familiar with the twizzle rig; reportedly attenuates roll:
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...at-121884.html
https://youtu.be/inpr3r3Fw18
https://youtu.be/sy53gIOrE40
https://youtu.be/cfFK0giF5xc

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by DEAN2140

Lots of roll, possible pole dip in the water, difficult to deal with squalls. Where is the upside?

Compared to a spinnaker lots more control.