Advice For first time buyers

[Hugh McCormack]

Originally Posted by boatman61

6ft/1.85 headroom...
https://www.scanboat.com/en/boat-mar...oe-50-17438421

https://www.scanboat.com/en/boat-mar...verad-17449414

This one is in Holland, quick trip up the coast, through the Kiel Canal and your home.. Americans can comment on its qualities.
https://www.scanboat.com/en/boat-mar...an-34-17439175

At least we're talking about sailboats now. The brightwork on the Alter is lovely, but would be never-ending.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Hugh McCormack

At least we're talking about sailboats now. The brightwork on the Alter is lovely, but would be never-ending.

Well he came with a specific question about a particular type of boat which I attempted to answer.
Now he is talking about ripping the boat apart and increase sail area (taller mast?) which will affect the design so why not go for these instead.
The Grampian 34 has I believe 7ft headroom in the salon going down to around 6ft 4in in the heads and forecabin.

[Hugh McCormack]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Well he came with a specific question about a particular type of boat which I attempted to answer.
Now he is talking about ripping the boat apart and increase sail area (taller mast?) which will affect the design so why not go for these instead.
The Grampian 34 has I believe 7ft headroom in the salon going down to around 6ft 4in in the heads and forecabin.

I liked your suggestions. They maintained the price point and took him into sailboats that would actually sail well. I decided to bail on the modifications. Just too much to say on the frightening prospect of remaking a so-so vessel into an expensive so-so vessel.

[Hugh McCormack]

The inherent problem is that this is, at first, a self-education process, not a forum process in its early (developing an eye for designs) stage. Read one or two "capable cruiser" books, refine your visual "knowledge," and eventually narrow the field having checked the "must have" boxes. Then see what others have to say about your narrowed field.

[EtienneFlavigny]

Originally Posted by Hugh McCormack

The inherent problem is that this is, at first, a self-education process, not a forum process in its early (developing an eye for designs) stage. Read one or two "capable cruiser" books, refine your visual "knowledge," and eventually narrow the field having checked the "must have" boxes. Then see what others have to say about your narrowed field.

Full keel,
headroom 6.2' +,
roomy for live aboard,
30'+,
Capable of sailing across the Atlantic(in time),
Initial cost 25k$.

[Cheechako]

"Good sailor" is relative really. If you are sailing long distances you normally plan your routes and avoid sailing to weather a lot of the time anyway. So the boat doesn't have to be "a witch to weather" to be a good sea boat. But yes, it must have enough sail area to move well and go to weather some. Many popular distance cruisers aren't motor sailors and still sail terribly if you start comparing them with racing boats. Especially once you have them loaded up. My guess is a Nauticat will go to weather as well as your average sailed popular catamaran will.
It's not like Nauticats haven't sailed around the world. And remember, you're probably at anchor 90% of the time.

[EtienneFlavigny]

Originally Posted by Hugh McCormack

The inherent problem is that this is, at first, a self-education process, not a forum process in its early (developing an eye for designs) stage. Read one or two "capable cruiser" books, refine your visual "knowledge," and eventually narrow the field having checked the "must have" boxes. Then see what others have to say about your narrowed field.

I've already ordered :P before I posted. The "must have boxes" are checked by the Albatros 33, I wanted to know if/how I could improve the sailing performance of this little motorsailor, not turn it into a racer :P I hope this clarifies my previous posts.

[EtienneFlavigny]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Well he came with a specific question about a particular type of boat which I attempted to answer.
Now he is talking about ripping the boat apart and increase sail area (taller mast?) which will affect the design so why not go for these instead.
The Grampian 34 has I believe 7ft headroom in the salon going down to around 6ft 4in in the heads and forecabin.

The grampian 34 is a good shout! Thanks

[Hugh McCormack]

Originally Posted by EtienneFlavigny

I've already ordered :P before I posted. The "must have boxes" are checked by the Albatros 33, I wanted to know if/how I could improve the sailing performance of this little motorsailor, not turn it into a racer :P I hope this clarifies my previous posts.

I would urge you away from the Albetros (for numerous reasons) and towards the Grampian. Having to improve its sailing qualities will be an expensive and rather fruitless endeavor.

[Hugh McCormack]

No one said anything about 'racers.' A fast, efficient passage-maker has more to do with crew safety than speed.

[EtienneFlavigny]

Originally Posted by Hugh McCormack

I would urge you away from the Albetros (for numerous reasons) and towards the Grampian. Having to improve its sailing qualities will be an expensive and rather fruitless endeavor.

Saw the Albatros today, it's not the boat! I'm going to keep looking and the Grampian is very nice, I'm going to the yacth club to see if someone owns one so I don't have to go to the Netherlands to it :P But it looks really good.

[boatman61]

Another boat worth considering is the Fellowship 33, likely most will be in Holland though.
Headroom 1.95.

[TrentePieds]

Davs Etienne og velkommen :-)!

The rules say we mustn't do it in Danish - nor in French - so it'll just have to be English ;-)

I've read all posts from #1 to #40, and there's a ton of good advice in them, but I thot I'd remind you, cos you are new to this game and looking for your first boat, that you said you want to go circumnavigating. That is a dream that many people have – a dream that subsequently gets abandoned because in reality it is not what it is in the dream :-)! Rather than speak to particular boats, comparisons between which you cannot yet be ready to make, I thot I'd like to give you some background philosophy to chew on :-)!

Although you are obviously a “New Dane”, just as I am a “New Canadian”, you may know that out of the port of Marstal on the island of Ærø in the Danish "South Seas", the paysans used to get their seed in the ground in the spring, and then, over the summer, make a voyage to the Danish West Indies (now the US VI) for a cargo of sugar. They would come back to Ærø in time for the harvest. I would remind you, similarly, that Captain Cook, when the Admiralty sent him to the Pacific Ocean, then a mare incognito, chose not a fast ship like a frigate, but a Newcastle Collier! And none of these ships of yore had auxilliary engines. Speed and weatherliness were less important than other criteria!

Think now for a moment about the ineluctable fact that for a sailorman aboard ship there are only three “states of the ship”: The state the ship must be in when racing, the state the ship must be in when on passage while cruising, and the state the ship must be in when in harbour while cruising.

The differences twixt the SoS(“State of the Ship”) when racing and the SoS when cruising are so great that no ship can be changed at will from one SoS to the other. That is because the differences are aspects of ships' fundamental design. So yer pays yer money and takes yer pick :-)! You can have an efficient Racer or you can have an efficient Cruiser, but, advertising gobbledegook in the glossy mags notwithstanding, ye cannot have a Cruiser/Racer!

It IS possible so to design a cruising boat that it may be conveniently changed from the SoS required for passages to the SoS required for comfortable living aboard when in harbour – or “on the hook”. And so that it may be conveniently changed back again. It is obviously such a ship you seek :-) The convenience with which the switch may be made is a function of the design of the ship's “fitments” and of her rig.

HOWEVER, you won't get such a ship, “ready to go”, for the five and twenty grand you say is your budget! The reason is that for that money you can only get a half-century old, factory built “frozen snot” (GRP, fibreglass) boat. Half a century ago every Tom, Dick and Harry suddenly had to be a seafaring man. Just one of those inexplicable crazes that occasionally sweep over the Home of the Brave :-) Entrepreneurs rose to the occasion and turned out “Cruiser/Racers” by the tens of thousands and sold them, abetted by the wizards of Madison Avenue, into a “market of ignorance”. The fact is that being on passage is like war: long periods of utter boredom interspersed with short periods of utter terror. Making a passage is merely a job to be done and comfortable living be damned! Being “on passage” is a trial you accept as the price of getting from one delightful place to another :-). In many cases the most suitable vessel for the passage is a Boeing 747.

Now, be glad of “frozen snot”! Someone said that “a wooden boat is on life support from the moment it leaves the builder's yard till the moment it dies. Frozen snot boats never die – you have to ASSASSINATE them!” That is why you can now get a perfectly adequate boat for five and twenty “boat bux” :-)!

For such a paltry sum you will NOT be able to buy a boat bigger than one you can easily handle alone. No crew required. So don't worry about length. Worry only about height under deck in the living spaces, for ability to stand up is a sine qua non for comfortable living when not on passage and being aboard but not under way will be how you spend most of your time. Therefore that consideration overrides all others in a “live aboard cruiser”. The particular layout below decks is of far less importance although for reasons we can come back to, I would personally avoid such layouts as are exemplified by the Viksund 31. But remember also, since I gather your wife will be your crew, that MOST women LOATHE being at sea! When the ship begins to heel, MOST women revert to some seriously atavistic behaviour! It has to do with the continuation of the species. And there is only one way to find out about any particular woman:-).

So come back, now, to the ships out of Marstal and to the colliers of the Tyneside. They were NOT fast ships by our standards, nor were they particularly weatherly, but they were burdensome. The Marstal ships were SCHOONERS, i.e. they were fore'n'aft rigged. Why were they that? Because in days before auxilliary engines, they had to be able to transit through the narrow Danish inland waters with the prevailing winds more or less forrard of the beam on the voyage OUT of those waters, and then via the Channel out into the Atlantic. From the Skaw to the Foreland they took much the same track as the Newcastle Colliers.

But they were TOPSL schooners. Why was that? It was because returning from the Caribbean to Denmark the prevailing winds were AFT of the beam. And once you have the wind aft of the beam, square sails, setting on yards, are much to be preferred over for'n'aft sails. Much easier to handle. The further aft you carry the wind the truer that statement is. The “windbags” of old were square riggers for that reason, and the British Board of Trade over a couple of centuries collected data enabling it to define the best route for a windbag to go from anywhere on earth to anywhere else with the wind (mostly) aft of the beam. These routes were published in the Sailing Directions (also called “pilots”). You will find many such publications in modern garb. When you become experienced enuff to go “off soundings”, remember that and take advantage of it :-)!

You cannot carry square sails efficiently in a modern cruising boat because the standing rigging would interfere with the proper bracing of the yard(s). But the sail we call a spinnaker is an absolute abomination in a shorthanded cruising boat and should be eschewed! Think about something called a “raffee”. If you are interested, we can come back to how the traditional raffee might be modified for use in a modern cruising boat such as, say, the Grampian 34 :-)

Bonne chance

TrentePieds

[Warren149]

Originally Posted by EtienneFlavigny

Hi all,

First post on my end, hope you guys can help

I'm a first time buyer looking for a 30'+ liveaboard in denmark.
I've found an Albatros 33 (similar to the Nauticat 33) which is almost perfect but on the long run I'd like to go sailing around the world, and the albatros 33 is a motor sailor.

Unfortunately, from what I've heard, motor sailors aren't that great under sails. Which is an issue for me considering I don't want to pay the boats price in fuel for crossing the Atlantic :P.

Any advice as to what boats to look for or potential changes that make them better under sail?

Thanks in advance!
Etienne.

Hi , you can certainly cross oceans in a motor-sailer
Check out sailing SV bora bora

They sailed a 1974 victory 40 around the Atlantic successfully
That was very much a motor sailer but with sailing abilities.
Cheers Warren

[EtienneFlavigny]

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

Davs Etienne og velkommen :-)!

The rules say we mustn't do it in Danish - nor in French - so it'll just have to be English ;-)

I've read all posts from #1 to #40, and there's a ton of good advice in them, but I thot I'd remind you, cos you are new to this game and looking for your first boat, that you said you want to go circumnavigating. That is a dream that many people have – a dream that subsequently gets abandoned because in reality it is not what it is in the dream :-)! Rather than speak to particular boats, comparisons between which you cannot yet be ready to make, I thot I'd like to give you some background philosophy to chew on :-)!

Although you are obviously a “New Dane”, just as I am a “New Canadian”, you may know that out of the port of Marstal on the island of Ærø in the Danish "South Seas", the paysans used to get their seed in the ground in the spring, and then, over the summer, make a voyage to the Danish West Indies (now the US VI) for a cargo of sugar. They would come back to Ærø in time for the harvest. I would remind you, similarly, that Captain Cook, when the Admiralty sent him to the Pacific Ocean, then a mare incognito, chose not a fast ship like a frigate, but a Newcastle Collier! And none of these ships of yore had auxilliary engines. Speed and weatherliness were less important than other criteria!

Think now for a moment about the ineluctable fact that for a sailorman aboard ship there are only three “states of the ship”: The state the ship must be in when racing, the state the ship must be in when on passage while cruising, and the state the ship must be in when in harbour while cruising.

The differences twixt the SoS(“State of the Ship”) when racing and the SoS when cruising are so great that no ship can be changed at will from one SoS to the other. That is because the differences are aspects of ships' fundamental design. So yer pays yer money and takes yer pick :-)! You can have an efficient Racer or you can have an efficient Cruiser, but, advertising gobbledegook in the glossy mags notwithstanding, ye cannot have a Cruiser/Racer!

It IS possible so to design a cruising boat that it may be conveniently changed from the SoS required for passages to the SoS required for comfortable living aboard when in harbour – or “on the hook”. And so that it may be conveniently changed back again. It is obviously such a ship you seek :-) The convenience with which the switch may be made is a function of the design of the ship's “fitments” and of her rig.

HOWEVER, you won't get such a ship, “ready to go”, for the five and twenty grand you say is your budget! The reason is that for that money you can only get a half-century old, factory built “frozen snot” (GRP, fibreglass) boat. Half a century ago every Tom, Dick and Harry suddenly had to be a seafaring man. Just one of those inexplicable crazes that occasionally sweep over the Home of the Brave :-) Entrepreneurs rose to the occasion and turned out “Cruiser/Racers” by the tens of thousands and sold them, abetted by the wizards of Madison Avenue, into a “market of ignorance”. The fact is that being on passage is like war: long periods of utter boredom interspersed with short periods of utter terror. Making a passage is merely a job to be done and comfortable living be damned! Being “on passage” is a trial you accept as the price of getting from one delightful place to another :-). In many cases the most suitable vessel for the passage is a Boeing 747.

Now, be glad of “frozen snot”! Someone said that “a wooden boat is on life support from the moment it leaves the builder's yard till the moment it dies. Frozen snot boats never die – you have to ASSASSINATE them!” That is why you can now get a perfectly adequate boat for five and twenty “boat bux” :-)!

For such a paltry sum you will NOT be able to buy a boat bigger than one you can easily handle alone. No crew required. So don't worry about length. Worry only about height under deck in the living spaces, for ability to stand up is a sine qua non for comfortable living when not on passage and being aboard but not under way will be how you spend most of your time. Therefore that consideration overrides all others in a “live aboard cruiser”. The particular layout below decks is of far less importance although for reasons we can come back to, I would personally avoid such layouts as are exemplified by the Viksund 31. But remember also, since I gather your wife will be your crew, that MOST women LOATHE being at sea! When the ship begins to heel, MOST women revert to some seriously atavistic behaviour! It has to do with the continuation of the species. And there is only one way to find out about any particular woman:-).

So come back, now, to the ships out of Marstal and to the colliers of the Tyneside. They were NOT fast ships by our standards, nor were they particularly weatherly, but they were burdensome. The Marstal ships were SCHOONERS, i.e. they were fore'n'aft rigged. Why were they that? Because in days before auxilliary engines, they had to be able to transit through the narrow Danish inland waters with the prevailing winds more or less forrard of the beam on the voyage OUT of those waters, and then via the Channel out into the Atlantic. From the Skaw to the Foreland they took much the same track as the Newcastle Colliers.

But they were TOPSL schooners. Why was that? It was because returning from the Caribbean to Denmark the prevailing winds were AFT of the beam. And once you have the wind aft of the beam, square sails, setting on yards, are much to be preferred over for'n'aft sails. Much easier to handle. The further aft you carry the wind the truer that statement is. The “windbags” of old were square riggers for that reason, and the British Board of Trade over a couple of centuries collected data enabling it to define the best route for a windbag to go from anywhere on earth to anywhere else with the wind (mostly) aft of the beam. These routes were published in the Sailing Directions (also called “pilots”). You will find many such publications in modern garb. When you become experienced enuff to go “off soundings”, remember that and take advantage of it :-)!

You cannot carry square sails efficiently in a modern cruising boat because the standing rigging would interfere with the proper bracing of the yard(s). But the sail we call a spinnaker is an absolute abomination in a shorthanded cruising boat and should be eschewed! Think about something called a “raffee”. If you are interested, we can come back to how the traditional raffee might be modified for use in a modern cruising boat such as, say, the Grampian 34 :-)

Bonne chance

TrentePieds

Trentpieds,

Reading this post was good fun, I like the wisdom shared.
You have my gratitude good Sir.

Merci bien,
Etienne.