Thinking about jumping the shark.

[Tayana42]

Nick, I've been following your threads and watched your video. I think you are one of the few people who have the attitude, mechanical skills, sense of humor, determination and grit to make this work for you. So I say welcome to the cruising life.

One big plus you have is still owning your older truck so you can add to your budget as needed. Aside from driving it yourself, can you put that truck to use for you with someone else driving it, lease or rent? I'm not a trucker so that may be a naïve question but we have found rental income from our house to be great (not free). And having an asset work for you beats working when you'd rather be on the boat.


S/V B'Shert

[first wind]

Originally Posted by Lizzy Belle

Cos it's apples and oranges.
Plus, some people rented their oranges while they may own their apples.

i don't know that i agree about apples and oranges. i think a lot of live aboards wouldn't either. however, i think you totally missed my point.

the point is, whatever you choose to do with your life, there is generally a cost.

if you own a home, there are a lot of upkeep costs. once your home is not new, those costs increase significantly.

(however, at least in the land of mary, you never really own your home. once you are done paying the bank off, the state really owns it. if you don't pay your rent( usually referred to as property taxes even though most item taxes are paid only at the time of sale and not over and over every year of ownership), they can take it. if they decide they want it for some reason, they can take it.

i own my boat. it's mine. no yearly taxes. no imminent domain. it really is mine.)

rentals have other costs. high payments for the duration of your stay. you don't own it so customization is generally out. more rules to follow. sometimes yearly inspections. rate hikes.

as far as it relates to my point, home ownership, home rental, boat ownership, car ownership....whatever it is you own or decide to do with your life....it's all apples. if i remember correctly, the post i was responding to was saying that living on a boat was costly. (in my experience it's not as costly as living on land, however...) i was just saying that nothing in life is free. if the fact that there are costs to life is a real deterrent, maybe life isn't a good option for you....oh, except it's expensive to die; maybe not for you but for your family that you leave behind. i guess there really is a cost to anything you do. so, there's my point.

[first wind]

actually, on the subject of comparing home ownership to living aboard a boat...

living aboard, as long as that's what you enjoy, has it all over home ownership.

on a regular basis, home ownership and maintenance is more expensive and unpleasantly time consuming. just lawn maintenance, alone, is like an open pit that sucks down dollars and the far more valuable minutes and hours of your life. weekend after weekend wasted cutting grass that just grows back next week. you can't eat what you harvest. you can't sell it, either, because, it has no usefulness.

you pollute the air with your mowing equipment. you have your mower, your weed wacker, your tractor, maybe a hedge trimmer. highly inefficient small motors running for hours all over the countryside just to maintain a neatly trimmed visage. equipment, fuel, time, noise, polution.

while there are, every so many years, big maintenance costs on a sailboat( like replacing sails) most of the costs are much less than most house repair costs. most everything you replace in your house will cost in excess of $500 bucks. that's a given. many things will cost you three zeros. lots of things will cost you four zeros.

the large majority of things you fix on your boat can be fixed by the average person, with a little learning. most people will not replace their own siding, redo their own shingles, replace their own deck, etc. (if you have a construction background, like i do, it's a bit different. however, i'd still rather work on a boat than redo shingles on a house. i have been shackled to my mother's house ever since my father died and that's exactly what it's like; being shackled. a truly thankless, endless task)

besides that, depending on your lifestyle, a house is just the place you go to rest and sleep once you are done living your life for the day. yes, some people are like my mom and don't leave the property, or even the house, unless absolutely necessary. but, if that's all you want out of life, i don't think you would even be part of a sailing blog.

a sailboat is so much more than that. yes, you live there. it does fulfill that need just like a house does. however, a sailboat is also a way to experience the life that you are temporarily taking a break from when you go home. with a sailboat as your home, it's like driving a thousand miles on a vacation trip and then going to sleep in your own home in your own bed because, when you live aboard your sailboat, you are taking your home with you as you travel.

kind of like being a snail...only a lot faster with a lot less mucus.

so, i guess i can see your apples to oranges thought......only, it's all in favor of the sailboat. but, then, i like sailing and i like being aboard a sailboat. (you can't get a better night's sleep anywhere)

otherwise, i wouldn't be taking part in a sailing blog.

[Scout 30]

Actually the federal government determined many years ago that a boat with a head & a galley is a home & the interest on the loan of that home/boat can be deducted the same as a home on land. Therefore the comparison of associated costs makes sense, especially when the boat is used as a residence. However, I don't agree that having to pay property taxes means you don't own your property. That just comes off as a nonsensical anti-tax statement. And that registration sticker for your boat that you pay for every year is also a tax.

[a64pilot]

No, I tend to agree about the tax statement, I have seen more than once people lose their land due to taxes.
Expensive houses are built around the old farm, it's reappraised at some ridiculous value, but try to sell and no buyers, then tax bill adds up until land is seized.
Sort of a White Elephant.
My property tax bill on my land and house was $6,000 a yr, that's more than my slip rent and power bill are and I owned the house and land free and clear, but we of course had to save $500 a month to pay the tax man or lose the house.

Same size / value house we had in Alabama tax was less than 1/4 what it was in Albany Ga.

My boat in Florida is not taxed and registration for both it and the dinghy was less than $200 I think.


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[Scout 30]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

No, I tend to agree about the tax statement, I have seen more than once people lose their land due to taxes.
Expensive houses are built around the old farm, it's reappraised at some ridiculous value, but try to sell and no buyers, then tax bill adds up until land is seized.
Sort of a White Elephant.
My property tax bill on my land and house was $6,000 a yr, that's more than my slip rent and power bill are and I owned the house and land free and clear, but we of course had to save $500 a month to pay the tax man or lose the house.

Same size / value house we had in Alabama tax was less than 1/4 what it was in Albany Ga.

My boat in Florida is not taxed and registration for both it and the dinghy was less than $200 I think.


Sent from my iPad Pro using Cruisers Sailing Forum

It's true that people can & sometimes do lose their land due to unpaid property taxes. Point being, it's their land. I'm not interested in an anti-government/anti-tax debate. I'm just disagreeing with the statement that someone does not own their land if they have to pay property taxes. It's nonsense.

[first wind]

Originally Posted by Scout 30

It's true that people can & sometimes do lose their land due to unpaid property taxes. Point being, it's their land. I'm not interested in an anti-government/anti-tax debate. I'm just disagreeing with the statement that someone does not own their land if they have to pay property taxes. It's nonsense.

tax isn't the only way i mentioned that the state can take your land. they can also take it if they decide it's 'in the public interest'. a farm in my home town was taken a number of years ago. despite a great public outcry and protests. the family who had 'owned' the land had 'owned' it for generations. the state offered them what they thought was fair market price but, the family still farmed the land and did not want to sell it. it had been in the family for generations. in the end, the government condemned the land and then took it and paid the family a far lesser amount. i guess that's punishment for opposing the will of the government.

i don't know, the way i see it, if you have to pay someone a regular payment in order to keep someone from taking your property and kicking you out, you don't really own it. but, taxes aside (since i know there are people who love taxation), you still have imminent domain and, if someone can just kick you off of your land and give you what they please for it, despite the fact that you don't want to part with it, you don't really own it. they do. you just pretend you own it and you call your rent 'taxes' in order to support the illusion (or perhaps delusion) of ownership.

normally, you pay taxes on items at the time of purchase. the tax man doesn't come to your house every year and demand you pay taxes on your TV or he will take it away from you. why is that? because you own your TV.

cars get re-taxed every time it's sold (which i think is not right) but, you only get taxed on it, yourself, at the time of purchase. the tax man doesn't come to collect car taxes every year with the threat of taking your car if you fail to pay... because, once you buy it, you own your car.

the government also can't just decide it's in the public interest that they should steal your TV or your car or anything else you own without your being willing to sell it to them.

can you imagine the public uproar if the state just came to someone's house and took their car because it had been decided it was in the 'public interest' that someone else, of the state's choosing, should own it?

say what you will but, in my view, if the government can just come take what you 'own' without you having any say about it, you don't really own it.

[first wind]

Originally Posted by Scout 30

Actually the federal government determined many years ago that a boat with a head & a galley is a home & the interest on the loan of that home/boat can be deducted the same as a home on land. Therefore the comparison of associated costs makes sense, especially when the boat is used as a residence. However, I don't agree that having to pay property taxes means you don't own your property. That just comes off as a nonsensical anti-tax statement. And that registration sticker for your boat that you pay for every year is also a tax.

regardless of your opinion about property rights, or lack thereof, my original point still stands.

as far as your point about registration being a tax. of course it is. but, it's not a property tax. like buying car tags, it's supposed to be a tax that pays the public bills associated with operation of that vehicle.

i never said i was against all taxes. government doesn't make money. it spends it. that means it has to take that money from the people to pay the bills the government creates. some taxation is necessary.

there is a difference. if you don't buy tags you can't drive your car on the road but, the tax collector won't come and steal your car. if you don't pay your boat registration, you can't operate on public waters but, they don't come and steal your boat if you don't get it registered.

that really is comparing apples to oranges!

back to the subject of this thread:

1) all possible choices of life path have their costs
2) as a general rule (living similar lifestyles), living on the water is cheaper than living on land; financially and in terms of it's drain on the hours and minutes of your life.
3) this is even more true if you consider exactly what a house and a sailboat have the potential to accomplish: one is a roof to shelter under between living life. the other is the shelter and the means to advance to goal of living life.

i'm not sure how but, i am sure someone will find a way to avoid the meaning of that and, instead, pick apart some random element of my statement that has no bearing on the ultimate point i was trying to make.

[Scout 30]

Owning real property is an investment that comes with associated costs. If the property is located in a Planned Unit Development there will be a mandatory HOA fee. If you don't pay the fee the Homeowner's Association can foreclose on your property & take ownership of it. That does not mean that you rent your home from the Home Owner's Association. A boat that you can live on can be considered real property because you can deduct your mortgage interest. While it's true that you can hide your boat on land & not pay your yearly registration fee if you keep it in the water & refuse to pay that fee the State will confiscate your boat. That does not mean that you rent your boat from the State. TVs are personal property, not real property, & are not relevant.

Also, if you make a statement in a post that someone does not agree with you can expect them to challenge it. If you have a problem with that don't make the statement in the first place.

[Dave22q]

I understand your thoughts about living on the hook but you might think hard about the negatives before you make financial plans based on no slip fees. Power- you need a way to keep your batteries charged. Water- hauling jugs on a dinghy is not much fun, same with ice for your cooler and fuel for your engine or generator. Pump outs- a necessary evil you will need to buy every week or two.
If you plan on paying slip fees you can still anchor out as you please. That flexibility is why I suggest you not count on always anchoring out.

[a64pilot]

I think the issue was comparing land living to living on a boat cost wise.
I think the tax issue is very relevant as my property taxes were the sum total of what some say they live on, the live on $500 a month thread. But the real issue is you never pay off the taxes, call it what you want, but every year around Christmas when I Wrote the tax check, it sure felt like I was making payments.
Plus if I desire or need to cut costs on my boat, depending on life style, maybe I can. I can move out of a Marina and move to a cheaper place to live.
Tough to move a house, and tax man doesn't care if you have been "right sized" at work or not. Yes in theory you can sell, many now owe more unfortunately that they will receive once it's all shared.

The whole middle class, two cars, nice house thing is sort of a self replicating trap, many people work their tails off, actually owning nothing or very little to keep up, get old and then realize they have no assets.

My Father told me something years ago that stuck, he said nothing is wrong with living in a trailer, what's tough though is having to move back into a trailer when you get old. He owned a trailer park and catered to older people, and most of them were middle class many professionals, that had to Retire and move back into a trailer.


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[first wind]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

I think the issue was comparing land living to living on a boat cost wise.
I think the tax issue is very relevant as my property taxes were the sum total of what some say they live on, the live on $500 a month thread. But the real issue is you never pay off the taxes, call it what you want, but every year around Christmas when I Wrote the tax check, it sure felt like I was making payments.
Plus if I desire or need to cut costs on my boat, depending on life style, maybe I can. I can move out of a Marina and move to a cheaper place to live.
Tough to move a house, and tax man doesn't care if you have been "right sized" at work or not. Yes in theory you can sell, many now owe more unfortunately that they will receive once it's all shared.

The whole middle class, two cars, nice house thing is sort of a self replicating trap, many people work their tails off, actually owning nothing or very little to keep up, get old and then realize they have no assets.

My Father told me something years ago that stuck, he said nothing is wrong with living in a trailer, what's tough though is having to move back into a trailer when you get old. He owned a trailer park and catered to older people, and most of them were middle class many professionals, that had to Retire and move back into a trailer.


Sent from my iPad Pro using Cruisers Sailing Forum

my point exactly

[first wind]

Originally Posted by Scout 30

If the property is located in a Planned Unit Development there will be a mandatory HOA fee. If you don't pay the fee the Homeowner's Association can foreclose on your property & take ownership of it. That does not mean that you rent your home from the Home Owner's Association.

i have worked in residential construction most of my life. my last job was punch-out guy/assistant superintendent on a site that was a planned community with a HOA. but, i would never spend my hard earned money to buy a house in a place where i, then, have to pay someone to tell me what i can and can not do on what is supposedly my own property.

personally, i think the HOA is a thoroughly un-American concept. the idea of the founding fathers was to create a very limited government that would allow people to be free and live as they wish. what do we, their descendants, do? not only do we allow, and even encourage, our government to violate those ideals but, since that wasn't enough for us, we create the HOA...an organization we are forced to pay (much like we do the government) that we give the power to determine the minutia of our lives; leaving no part of our supposedly free existence uncontrolled by a governing body.

no thank you.

Originally Posted by Scout 30

A boat that you can live on can be considered real property because you can deduct your mortgage interest. While it's true that you can hide your boat on land & not pay your yearly registration fee if you keep it in the water & refuse to pay that fee the State will confiscate your boat. That does not mean that you rent your boat from the State. TVs are personal property, not real property, & are not relevant.

so, you're an accountant, banker, government official, or maybe an investment broker?

that would be the problem with this spin off discussion. i was making a relevant point based on physical reality; that reality being that, if you pay for something and it becomes your property, it's your property (at least, it's supposed to be). but, if you pay for something and, then, you still have to continue to pay for it in order to maintain 'ownership', you really don't own it. and, if you supposedly own something and it can 'legally' be taken from you at someone else's whim, you don't really own it. but, then, i do notice you have avoided the concept of imminent domain; which was the other part of that idea.

land is no more real than a TV. i have dug dirt and i have carried TVs and, i can honestly say they are both real. they both exist in the real world. they both have mass. they are both assigned a monetary value. and, if i own them both, they are my personal property.

the sole purpose of such a distinction is to give one man power to control another man's belongings. if you force-ably take another man's property, it's theft. semantics don't change the reality of life. put to sleep, passed away, gone to live with the angels...all just words to hide reality. dead is dead.

which leads me to the final part of your post"

Originally Posted by Scout 30

Also, if you make a statement in a post that someone does not agree with you can expect them to challenge it. If you have a problem with that don't make the statement in the first place.

if a person makes a valid point, that is relevant to the thread, and other people choose to ignore that point and pick apart one element, with no actual reason relevant to the discussion, it's probably to be expected that those interruptions should be met with disdain.

[senormechanico]

Originally Posted by Dave22q

I understand your thoughts about living on the hook but you might think hard about the negatives before you make financial plans based on no slip fees. Power- you need a way to keep your batteries charged. Water- hauling jugs on a dinghy is not much fun, same with ice for your cooler and fuel for your engine or generator. Pump outs- a necessary evil you will need to buy every week or two.
If you plan on paying slip fees you can still anchor out as you please. That flexibility is why I suggest you not count on always anchoring out.

As long as you're not anchored in a "No Discharge Zone", the answer to all of the above is a bunch of solar panels, a good quality watermaker and an ElectroScan. Oh, and a LiFePo4 battery bank.

[first wind]

Originally Posted by senormechanico

As long as you're not anchored in a "No Discharge Zone", the answer to all of the above is a bunch of solar panels, a good quality watermaker and an ElectroScan. Oh, and a LiFePo4 battery bank.

true. and you don't have to pay for a pump-out if you have a composting head