Sailing for Economy

[Greenhand]

Originally Posted by Horror Hotel

I don't think anything for 50k is a bargain. Since when has 50k become a throw away amount of money? Is everybody in a 50k boat some bum stealing water and sneaking trash to shore at night.

Do only vagabonds get bargains?

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey

really sail boy? You got that much wind? 50% motoring is average.

Well, what proportion of time sailors sail depends on a lot of things.

Whether you sail where there's wind, whether your boat goes upwind or not, whether you go upwind or not . . .

When I was cruising SW Florida, I doubt if I sailed much more than 10% - 15%. That boat wouldn't go upwind at all, so tacking would not make miles to windward, so sailing was really only an option for a reach on down. Then in Floridia, there's usually no wind. So that was a motorboat with auxiliary sails. Sailing was a rare and exotic treat.

Nowadays I cover at least 75% of my miles under sail. That's because I sail where there's wind (usually too much), and I finally have a boat that can go upwind effectively. This is so important to sailing enjoyment -- you really need to be able to sail without pinching at 37 - 38 degrees off the apparent wind or less, or else VMG to windward falls off so fast that it rapidly stops being worthwhile trying to go upwind.

It helps a little sailing in tidal waters, because a fair tide closes your tacking angle (over ground), making up for a multitude of upwind sailing sins. So if you need to go upwind around here, just be sure to do it on a fair tide. Going upwind on a foul tide, on the contrary, becomes a real test of your boat and your skill.

[sailorboy1]

Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey

really sail boy? You got that much wind? 50% motoring is average.

I never thought I had any special amount of wind, but if you say people are motoring 50% of their time I guess I must have as I sure am nowhere near that.

[Horror Hotel]

Depends where you are, I'm on my 4th trip from near the Canadian border to the Fl keys and or bahamas. The east coast is packed with others doing the same every year. I can assure you it's nowhere near 50% of sail on this trip for the average cruiser. Most doing it have a time frame of seven months or so. I have meet some sail purist ( very few) in the keys who talked about sailing home to NY or Maine and had 4 month schedules. They would wait endlessly for good winds, just to make a good hop. It's cold when we leave so hauling ass south is the plan, then the Bahamas crossing (better in good weather). Then the recreational sailing begins to happen. I got my boat to go places, sailing is very secondary to that. I find the people I meet who have been recreational sailors for years tend to sail more, but still after you sit in (any port) for 3 days and seen the sights, it's time to keep moving on day four. If it happens to be windy in the right direction great, but if it's calm we still go. My point in starting this thread was I've meet many, many people who are sailors but it's such a secondary thing to the travel and being on the water. As always it's gone differently than I thought, and it's kinda turned into a " I sail how a lot, dare you suggest otherwise" thread. Rather than talking to the hundreds of people I meet every year on the southern pilgrimage. But those people are out doing it, their the 2 sailboats and trawler that passed me an hour ago. I should have asked them what they thought.

[jostalli]

Here are the numbers from Eric and Christie Grab for their circumnavigation aboard a new Nordhavn 43: http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ble-64639.html

$50k in fuel. Even the Bumfuzzles, who admitted to motoring much more than most sailors didn't spend close to that in fuel.

[Horror Hotel]

I remember reading that thread, it's good stuff. I bet going a little more minimalistic you could shave the fuel down a bit to. I didn't reread it but I bet at some point the sail crowd jumps ohm with a bunch of "what if" BS. I just met a fellow with a Nord that had the same engine I do as a wing get-home motor. A yanmar 3 cyl.

[jostalli]

Here are their stats:

Average speed entire trip: 6 knots
Engine Hours: 4,774
Generator hours: 1,902
Nautical Miles: 28,940 (33,821 statute miles, 53,539 kilometers)
Diesel consumed: ~11,800 US gallons, 44,600 liters

[markpierce]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

That's the argument that is used, but I bet that if it's used much at all, you have to figure an engine replacement every ten to fifteen yrs and that I think would roughly cancel out the rigging / sails. ...

Don't almost all able-to-cruise sailboats also have engines, subject to replacement and maintenance? I'm not convinced a little-used engine will last longer than a well-used one. I expect a neglected engine wouldn't last as long. I anticipate my John Deere to outlast me.

Please hoist your sails. They're pretty.

[nimblemotors]

To have a motorboat that is quiet and doesn't pollute is being an arrogant jerk, so I won't mention it and be more friendly and sympathize about the stinky and noisy diesel.

As been discussed before, sailing isn't really that economical when you really do a lot of it, the sails wear out and need replaced, and they are not cheap on a 40-50ft boat.
It IS inexpensive to buy an old sailboat that already has sails, and use it until they wear out, so you don't really incur that expense. Or replacing masts and rigging and blocks and winches. AND you still have the stinky diesel engine to maintain anyway.

I'll shut up now.

[Ryan H]

Originally Posted by Horror Hotel

I don't think anything for 50k is a bargain. Since when has 50k become a throw away amount of money? Is everybody in a 50k boat some bum stealing water and sneaking trash to shore at night. Sometimes it really seems the majority of posters here are white upper middle class retired baby boomers.

Perhaps I should have put quotes around "50k bargain boats" to make my meaning more clear. I stand on my own two feet, return every favor, and put sweat and effort into my boats upkeep, but fall squarely into the lowest $$$ cruising bracket.

I paid 100$ for my sailboat Hull, 500$ to build my own rigging, 400$ for the mast and boom, 85$ for an 8 hp outboard, and 350$ for 2 jibs and a good barely used mainsail. I fit out my whole boat either building from scratch or picking through a very good used market for less than the cost of a week or two worth of fuel and have lived aboard for two years in comfort so far. 50k$ represents about what I'll likely spend aboard my boat in close to a decade, let alone the cost up front.

In my mind, spending 10,000$ for faster sails really doesn't make too much sense either because sailboats just aren't fast. Simple physics dictates the hull speed, you can spend extra $$$ to increase light wind performance but it would likely be much less expensive spending that money motoring in low winds anyway.

For unlimited range requiring unlimited patience, get a sailboat. For cruising and liveaboard as inexpensively as possible, get a sailboat. For continence, speed, and with a larger budget get a motorboat.

Asking whether sailors secretly wish they could afford a motorboat comes across as a little like asking the Amish if they wouldn't rather drive a car and use power tools.

[Horror Hotel]

I just asked if sailors would have a trawler if the gallons per hour we're not a issue. Everyone got pretty defensive.

[Ryan H]

Ha, it's because you asked for opinions. Usually makes just about everyone hostile after the first few sentences.

[Horror Hotel]

Seems sailors get defensive, power boaters couldn't care less. I'm firmly in the middle.

[Ryan H]

So you're defensive and couldn't care less? :-P

I can't claim to have evidence of power or sail boaters as a group being any one thing or another. Most of the people Ive meet out on the water or in this forum strike me all as fairly individual.

I can say with some safety is that if expenses are keeping anyone from a particular sort of boat it's more likely a factor of size of boat rather than type.

The arguing I'd put towards too many people thinking too long about the same thing but with different motives and requirements naturally assuming there should be only one obvious opinion. Plus it's the tail end of winter for a lot of us and we're mostly bored.

[Azul]

Asking whether sailors secretly wish they could afford a motorboat comes across as a little like asking the Amish if they wouldn't rather drive a car and use power tools.[/QUOTE]

I'm in Amish country right now. Ha, they like to use power tools, they just don't own them or keep them at their homes. They rent or borrow power tools when they need them, such as building houses or furniture. Also, every one of them I know has a cell phone. As for automobiles, when they have to travel any appreciable distance they have to hire a driver to take them (a huge PITA,) they don't drive their buggies and I think secretly many would love to own a car if it weren't viewed as a black eye religiously.

Back to fuel consumption. Most power boaters don't crawl along at 6 knots, heck if you try to marlin fish with a boat that only makes 30 knots instead of 40 the high rollers look upon you with pity. We budgeted $5000 for fuel for the Big Rock, fishing four days. A typical 31 foot center console (with two or three outboards) fishing boat will burn 150 gallons per day while fishing offshore. Mine with twin 250's would go 62 mph at WOT but burn 30 gal/h each engine. A single engine trawler doesn't burn that much fuel and the accommodations would be nice but even an old Grand Banks is a lot of money.

Since I am no longer in a hurry to do anything, I find the sound and vibration of running the diesel annoying compared to sailing, but I'm not going anywhere- just enjoying being on the water.