Sailing for Economy

[Horror Hotel]

I dunno from the replies I've got seems no one wants a trawler, and I'm committing blasphemy by asking. I'm a sailor and I'm thinking of making the switch. I wanted real dialogue rather than all the holier than thou, at one with the wind hippy crap.

[Greenhand]

Originally Posted by Horror Hotel

I dunno from the replies I've got seems no one wants a trawler, and I'm committing blasphemy by asking. I'm a sailor and I'm thinking of making the switch. I wanted real dialogue rather than all the holier than thou, at one with the wind hippy crap.

You wanted to know why people choose to sail, and seem to be getting pissed that they aren't all saying that it is a cost issue, we are all secretly wishing we could have a motor yacht.

For us, we genuinely enjoy sailing. There is a joy to the tweaking and adjusting. We are disappointed when the wind is so light that we have to choose between floating and motoring.

Cost is an issue - if it weren't we would consider installing a hybrid powering system that would sometimes allow us to move silently even when we do motor.

[Horror Hotel]

Oh I'm not pissed in the slightest, several post were very insightful, others not so much. But that's how CF goes, the strong opinions and personalities speak up. And we all know it's only your thread for 1 post, then ya get what ya get.

[a64pilot]

From the outside looking in as I don't have any sailing experience yet, it seems for extended traveling a sailboat is hard to beat, for short trips with extended living aboard, a trawler or other power boat is hard to beat.

[natew]

I don't quite get these huge numbers for sailing... $50k for sails? Even $6K for sails seems quite high for a long range cruising boat. $10K for rigging work? That's all choices people make, you can certainly do far better than that if you take the time to learn to do most of the work yourself.

Standing rigging for my boat would run about $1k, running rigging is probably closer to 2K, throw in about another $2k in misc. parts, turn buckles, blocks, and other parts and i'm up to $5K. I can have the whole rig pulled for less than $500 and refit everything myself. Grand total to completely rerig standing and running rigging top to bottom would be less than $6k and about 2 days of my time.

You can find used racing sails with sometimes less than even a full racing season on them in the range of $500-$1500 per. For $6k I am sure I can get a near new main sail, near new genoa, near new storm jib, and a spinnaker and possibly another light wind sail or two.

So for probably less than $12k I can replace every single "sail" related component. You start to get these rediculous $50k+ numbers when you decide to just drop your boat off and pick it up a week later with new "custom" made stuff.

Personally, I live to turn the engine off and sail. And half the time i'm content to simply sail even if i'm only making 2 knotts in a light breeze.

[Horror Hotel]

It's hard to beat cause they get such fantastic mileage. Plus if the winds in your favor, hoist the sails and take advantage of any wind. I am never happy going under 5 knots, nor due I sail into the wind. I motor sail a lot, if the winds good I throttle back. Tons of wind, maybe actually sail.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by natew

I don't quite get these huge numbers for sailing... $50k for sails? Even $6K for sails seems quite high for a long range cruising boat. $10K for rigging work? That's all choices people make, you can certainly do far better than that if you take the time to learn to do most of the work yourself..

I do nearly all of the work on my boat myself, including working in the engine, all electrical and electronic work, climbing the mast to install antennas, pulling cables, fixing toilets, etc, etc, etc. But I can't make sails myself, and cruising laminate sails from North or other good lofts cost 30 000 pounds excluding VAT, so actually closer to $60 000. Thats for a set of three working sails - yankee jib, staysail, furling main. Downwind sails not included! The reason is that the cost of sails goes up exponentially with size, since the loads go up and the material has to cope. Dacron would be somewhat cheaper, but Dacron is not really good for sails this size because the high loads tend to stretch them faster than smaller sails. So sails are a really large part of the running costs of a larger boat, and at some point start to converge with the cost of diesel in a mobo of comparable volume.

[Horror Hotel]

I agree the $50k number sounds like it was dropped off, check written, picked up, no DIY at all.
I had a local pro make a 160% genoa ($2600) and a mizzen ($1200) both are custom and larger than the original sizes due to both masts being taller. Main 2'2" and mizzen 6'2". This summer I'll have a new main made and put it on a hood roller behind the mast, I did the mizzen roller as a test last summer and it works well so I'll duplicate the rig. The sails, wire, turnbuckles, furlers, ect cost $12k. The new main will probably be near the cost of the genoa.

[Greenhand]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I do nearly all of the work on my boat myself, including working in the engine, all electrical and electronic work, climbing the mast to install antennas, pulling cables, fixing toilets, etc, etc, etc. But I can't make sails myself, and cruising laminate sails from North or other good lofts cost 30 000 pounds excluding VAT, so actually closer to $60 000. Thats for a set of three working sails - yankee jib, staysail, furling main. Downwind sails not included! The reason is that the cost of sails goes up exponentially with size, since the loads go up and the material has to cope. Dacron would be somewhat cheaper, but Dacron is not really good for sails this size because the high loads tend to stretch them faster than smaller sails. So sails are a really large part of the running costs of a larger boat, and at some point start to converge with the cost of diesel in a mobo of comparable volume.

Thank you for the explanation. And the confirmation of by instinct to keep it under 40'.

I wonder at if there is a way of comparing size and costs for motor vs. sail. For example, you can get more space in less LOA for a motor boat, so should we compare 35 motor to 40 sail? How would the long term costs compare?

[cburger]

Originally Posted by markpierce

Don't almost all able-to-cruise sailboats also have engines, subject to replacement and maintenance? I'm not convinced a little-used engine will last longer than a well-used one. I expect a neglected engine wouldn't last as long. I anticipate my John Deere to outlast me.

Please hoist your sails. They're pretty.

What a beautiful boat

[natew]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I do nearly all of the work on my boat myself, including working in the engine, all electrical and electronic work, climbing the mast to install antennas, pulling cables, fixing toilets, etc, etc, etc. But I can't make sails myself, and cruising laminate sails from North or other good lofts cost 30 000 pounds excluding VAT, so actually closer to $60 000. Thats for a set of three working sails - yankee jib, staysail, furling main. Downwind sails not included! The reason is that the cost of sails goes up exponentially with size, since the loads go up and the material has to cope. Dacron would be somewhat cheaper, but Dacron is not really good for sails this size because the high loads tend to stretch them faster than smaller sails. So sails are a really large part of the running costs of a larger boat, and at some point start to converge with the cost of diesel in a mobo of comparable volume.

True.. But have you considered used sails? Or is there limited availability there in the UK? I know that even for my boat a set of NEW sails would cost 20K easily. But, assuming availability, why not purchase used sails? Nearly all of these come off racing boats since they typically replace them at the beginning of each season regardless of condition and a good quality racing sail on a full time cruising boat is going to last quite a long time. I do suppose that size could be a factor again, as I think the majority of racing boats are in the sub 50 category therefore limiting availability. I know that for my size boat I can buy good quality used sails without putting much effort into it or money for that matter.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by hoppy

It's all about the journey for me. So I don't care about sail v motor economics whichever what you calculate it. :-)

I'd rather have a weekly prostate exam than switch from sail to a stink boat, perhaps with the exception of super yachts. Even then I'd prefer a sailing super yacht.

Used to have this really cute young doctor...I'd turn my head and cough any time. So your saying your prefered vessle is a motor boat?

We are exactly the demographic you are talking about. Used to have a twin engine power boat. It made sense for weekend cruising as you could reliably cover 100 miles or so in a reasonable time frame at 20kts but when we looked at doing the great loop, the fuel bill looked scary.

We like trawlers but were able to find a small sail catamaran for less up front money and with better fuel efficency.

Judging by the folks we see out on sailboats, cruising long distance, I would suggest 90% motoring is common place.

We sail if the wind is in our favor or if it's just a day sail with no paticular destination but otherwise the motor comes on.

Here's how I would break it down into logical groupings:
- Weekend/Week cruising: A fast boat so you can reach destinations.
- Coastal Cruising: A trawler or sailboat using the motor to maintain reasonable daily runs but not let the fuel bill get out of hand.
- Ocean Crossing: Sails because while there are exceptions, most vessels don't have the range under motor.

[hoppy]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Used to have this really cute young doctor...I'd turn my head and cough any time. So your saying your prefered vessle is a motor boat?

ha ha

Sail 100%

[Jon Neely]

We purposely went small when we moved up from our Caliber 28 to our HC33. We had the oppurtunity to buy a Lafitte 44 for less than what we paid for our HC33. We almost pulled the trigger then took a step back a figured out how much more each system was for a boat 11 feet longer. It was staggering! Its been an eye opener just coming from a plastic classic 28 to a teak freak 33. So far doing all the work myself we have kept our costs down. We will be repowering in the the couple of months, I look at this as a once every 30 years event on a sailboat if you take care of the engine( current engine is 32 years old and runs like a champ, just no parts ). I have had a quote put in for a new full set (main, Staysail, Yankee) of Tanbarks from mack sails, triple stitched for a total of 7 grand. Just got done replacing all the standing Toggle to Toggle and running myself using hi mod fitting and LS line for under $3000. That should be done every 10 years but now I just have to buy wire so the price should be no more than $5-700 next time. We came down the coast this last fall, Neah Bay, WA to SF bay. We used 62gallons of diesel which for our current engine equates to about 60hrs of motoring due to crap weather(No wind, large swell). When we filled our tanks back up in Berkeley our bill was $260. We averaged 5knts for the entire non stop trip. I'm not a motor yacht kind of guy, my mom however with a growing age and a life long sailor is considering selling her mason and getting a little Ranger trawler to hop around the bay and down the coast. I like to say "there is a boat for everyone".

Cheers,

Jon