Netherland and Belgium registration will be stopped

[SchoonerDragut]

I am italian, and I live aboard with my wife. We sail in EU and Extra EU waters. Actually I sail the Dragut with dutch flag, with an ICP issued by Watersportverbond , but Dutch ministry will no longer recognize these certificates as official registration certificates but as ownership certificates only. This means that this document can not be used in European waters and extra EU countries that requires a navigation title. To have a complete regstration in The Netherlands you must be a full time resident in the country.

Belgium Ministry is following Netherland choice.
From the 1st of January 2019, you will have to be able to justify a Belgian co-owner ( at least 50%) or be a Belgian resident to claim the Belgian flag for your boat.
You can apply for this registration before the 31/11/2018 and obtain a valid worldwide registration for 5 years but when the renewal is due, you will have to be able to fulfill the new criteria.
So, I am considering a change of flag. We would choose a cheap flag who ensure us to navigate with the certainty of being able to access serenely in international and foreign waters.

Malta is expensive for small yachts if you are not resident there. I wrote to some agents, and the resident agent should ask more than 900 € per year + 200 € renewal + fees + vat....

Extra EU registration, like UK or Delaware presents some problems:
1) difficults if you are EU citizen and not resident for the UK
2) Brexit and possibility to became an extra EU vessel (but we can temporary import the yacht for 18 months then quite EU and restart the temporary import)
3) The real problem for extra EU registration is the VAT to pay if you need to re-import the yacht under a EU registration.

Any suggestion?

[Seymore]

Why don't you register the boat Italian?

[SchoonerDragut]

Originally Posted by Seymore

Why don't you register the boat Italian?

If my government were less corrupt and exaggerated, I would do it.

[Sojourner]

Originally Posted by Seymore

Why don't you register the boat Italian?

Same reason I don't. Italian flagged boats in Italian waters get harrassed by the tax cops (Guarda di finanza) nonstop. They pass our Dutch flagged boat right by. We're switching to Belgian before the end of the year to get in before the law changes, and have 5 years to figure out what to do next...we'll be halfway around the world by then anyway

[gaucho]

Have you considered Langkawi?

Some people have had good experience with that

Langkawi International Yacht Registery (LIYR)

Also, another option is, being European, go Part 1 in the UK. The biggest hassle with it is probably the tonnage survey. You could fix that if you stopover in Gibraltar on your way out of the med .

Cheers

[Standbly]

To my knowledge there is only one official Dutch Ships Registration and that is in the Dutch Shipping Cadastre. In Dutch that's called "Scheepvaart Kadaster".



The recording in this register makes your boat "Dutch territory" on where Dutch laws apply. It's recognized world wide. Shipping law dictates that the Dutch government is obligated to stand up for you if things go wrong. It's meant for commercial ships but also applies to pleasure crafts. It's very expensive to be recorded in this cadastre and your vessel will be branded. Other rules apply like being a Dutch citizen etc.



All other "registrations" that are created by private, non government pleasure craft associations like "Watersportverbond" (which translated says
Water Sports Association) or ANWB or several others are... how should I put this... pretty much worthless. Always have been and always will be.


These "registrations" give you a nice official-looking piece of paper which says that you're the owner of your vessel. But it's not backed up with any proof and holds no status or value what so ever. It looks official and passes for an official document 99% of the time but it's not, it's an official looking piece of paper.


This matter became publicly clear when a German refugee-ship with a load of African travelers where denied in an Italian harbor. The captain claimed to be a Dutch ship and Dutch help was expected. His claim was false because his "registration" was done by a water sport association, not the government.



Here's a link to an article what happened to the "Dutch refugee ship"
https://www.dw.com/en/italy-to-seize...nts/a-44342405


The picture I attached is the document they claimed was their Dutch registration. Look closely it's a Watersportverbond piece of paper.

[Jeroen0606]

The information you provide about the Dutch ICP is mainly incorrect.

The Royal Dutch Watersport Association is officially appointed by the Dutch government to handle these type of yacht registrations in their name.

This can easily be proven by the enclosed United Nations document (see article 54).

The ICP is a formal ownerships registration and not a title document and which is issued in name of the Kingdom of The Netherlands.

It is the most used type of yacht ownership registration in Europe.

Not all countries require a title document while almost all countries require a ownerships document.

The problem are being mainly created because of yacht owners very often only look at the price of a yacht registration rather than choosing the more expensive one but which one better would fit their needs and requirements.

[Standbly]

Hoi Jeroen,


Mainly Portuguese and Italian boats fly a Dutch flag and have "Amsterdam" as home port painted on their stern. There are boats from other countries that do the same. Even on the other side of the Atlantic we come across non-Dutch boats with a Dutch flag.


That raises the question about how "official" those flags are. Why do these people fly a Dutch or Belgian flag to begin with? How is it possible that those boats, who are NOT Dutch, have NO Dutch owners or skippers or ANY ties to the Netherlands fly a flag that is not theirs.



There is only one answer. The country the boat/owner/skipper origins from has a high tax rate on yachting and/or is corrupt. That, and it's cheap and easy to get a !!!FAKE!!! Dutch registration. There is nothing about this registration that says that your boat is a part of the "royal" Dutch Kingdom.



What it is, is a business opportunity for the "yacht association" to make money. They created a document that claims that you're the owner of your vessel. The piece of ******** paper is nice to have because lots of European marinas and even officials like to copy, stamp, stack of cherish such papers. It works well in countries with customs that love paperwork and stamp anything that holds ink. WOWIE for the official logos and watermarks. You know exactly the countries that I'm talking about, I guess.


Your boat is yours if you can PROOF it. This piece of paper doesn't proof anything because anyone can get the document by post FLIPPIN' order!



How can a document be official if you can FRAUD with it and it's available by mail? Get real with your European blabla article 54 - it's fake. The Dutch government will deny you and I've proven my point in previous post.



If you respond, please bring some real life evidence that your Yacht Association document holds any value other than "ah nice they fell for it" and is being backed up by any government or LAW.

[gaucho]

Originally Posted by Standbly

If you respond, please bring some real life evidence that your Yacht Association document holds any value other than "ah nice they fell for it" and is being backed up by any government or LAW.

Like anybody really cares for a private yacht. Flag registration might be important for commercial vessels. Private yachts, really, who the hell cares. All the people who think that "countries" back them because they flag this or that flag. Pffff. Don't be ridiculous. People have passports and embassies and that's what kicks into action. The flag of a private yacht is really irrelevant. It's just a bureocracy that being such a small "market", no nation really cares that much, and thus, there's a lot of unfulfilled needs. That's why the Dutch ICP has been successful, or Belgian flag, or Langkawi, etc. There is a need for "a flag of convenience" because sometimes rules are shitty bureocracy. For example you can be a legal US Resident and still not have a "valid/legal" (again, in your judgmental eyes) registration because you are not a US CITIZEN. This is 1890s bureocracy, with no real raison d'etre today.

Most people I know flying some sort of flag of convenience (iuncluding state reg in the US) including myself do it becasue we haven't found a way to do it legally. Boats don't have nationalities ... people do.

[Jeroen0606]

The Dutch authorities are not responsible for the fact how people use their registration papers.

In many countries it is not just enough to show your sales contract or any other home made document.

They demand a formal proof which the ICP is. Also according to the United Nations.

Next to that there is no formal law which forbids to hang a Dutch flag behind your boat. It will not mean that the yacht is has the Dutch nationality.

So it is far to easy to shout the word "scam" or any such kind of qualification for a formal document which you don't like.

A certificate is what it is, a ownership registration, or a certificate of nationality which are both totally different documents.

If a owner decides to take a ownership registration while he should need a certificate of registry (title document) then it is the owner who made the wrong choice!

You can never blaim the authorities for such!

[Jeroen0606]

Enclosed the United Nations document concerning the Dutch ICP and which is easy to find via Google.

[barnakiel]

I wonder what they (Dutch and Belgians) will do with hundreds if not thousands of Spanish boats registered like that.


In a way I understand this because I am looking at many such boats and must admit their owners could use some more careful attitude to their boats' condition and to get some driver's skills perhaps too.


So this is I guess good news for many and bad news for few.


b.

[Jeroen0606]

The one already issued under the old laws stay active. They will not be revoked.

[olianta]

I am Bulgarian citizen but my 12 m yacht sails under Belgian flag since April this year and not because it is cheaper. Having a Bulgarian registration costs peanuts but requires each year to pass seaworthiness supervision which must be done in one of Bulgarian Black Sea ports. I keep my boat in the North Aegean and it takes 2-3 days non-stop passage to to the Black Sea to pass the supervision and get the certificate. Besides some requirements for safety equipment are excessive. For example, since my yacht has maximum load of ten persons I must have a 10 persons life raft and we never sail offshore more than 3 or 4 and the yacht can never make an ocean passage with more than 4 persons because of lack of enough storage for provisions and water. At least I will enjoy the Belgian flag for another 4 years and who knows what will be the laws then. Hope my greatgrandchildren to sail under uniform EU flag some day.
Rumen

[2savage]

How about earning more so you can pay up?