International ‘Rules of the Road’ vs. Naval Operation provedures

[AA3JY]

https://www.cnn.com/2019/06/07/politics/us-russia-navy-near-collision-intl/index.html?ofs=fbia

[Captain Bill]

Interesting, but the numerous views of the incident are not clear. One wide angle view appears to show a pretty straight wake of the Russian destroyer but it's not wide enough to show if as the US states that the Russians changed course and created the crossing situation. Was the aerial photo taken from the helicopter that the US ship was supposedly in the process of recovering? If so it looks like it was pretty far away when it took the picture. Simply having a helicopter flying within a mile of a naval vessel is not necessarily an indication that it is in the vessel is in the active process of launching or recovering an aircraft which would have given it special privileges as a vessel restricted in its ability to maneuver. The picture is not clear enough to tell if the US vessel was flying day shapes indicating it was restricted in its ability to maneuver. If not, then the Russian was the stand-on vessel and did exactly was it was supposed to do which is stand on until its obvious that the other vessel is not going to avoid the collision then maneuver to avoid it. We also don't know what communication if any was conducted between the bridges. There are no videos as yet from the Russians, at least not that I have seen which might show if the US ship was flying day shapes indicating it was restricted in its ability to maneuver. Lots of questions so far but no answers. Given the Pacific fleet's safety record the last few years I would not make bets on the US crew being in the right on this.

[evm1024]

From the video it appeared to me that the Russian vessel was overtaking the US vessel. Rule 13 would come into play. Rule 13.d may be very important to this.

I also think that recovery operations start as soon as the helo is given permission to "land" regardless of the distance. You would not say "just come to our area and chase us around and then land". It would go something more like " you may start your approach, we are standing on xxx degrees at yy knots".

But then again this whole encounter and all like is are not about the rules of the road. It is more like chicken and intimidation. Who will give up power first. (for very high stakes)

[Captain Bill]

Originally Posted by evm1024

From the video it appeared to me that the Russian vessel was overtaking the US vessel. Rule 13 would come into play. Rule 13.d may be very important to this.

I also think that recovery operations start as soon as the helo is given permission to "land" regardless of the distance. You would not say "just come to our area and chase us around and then land". It would go something more like " you may start your approach, we are standing on xxx degrees at yy knots".

But then again this whole encounter and all like is are not about the rules of the road. It is more like chicken and intimidation. Who will give up power first. (for very high stakes)

On the aerial photo I can see the wake from the Russian ship but not the US ship. It must have been moving very slowly or perhaps it's just the angle of the photograph. There appear to be some slight course changes to the Russian wake that might indicate some confusion on the part of the Russian crew or as you stated perhaps a game of chicken. The US crew admits it slammed the engines into reverse, which might have been the wrong thing to do. From the angle of the wake the Russian might have passed astern of the US vessel had it not stopped. I once had a sport fishing boat intent on getting to a school of fish approach at high speed from my starboard side and stop 100 feet in front of me while I was under full sail at 7.5 knots pretty hard on the wind. Even if I had been under power I would have been the stand-on vessel. I had to do some pretty quick maneuvering to miss him by 10 feet. Had I not turned I would have hit him at about the same angle as the Russian wake indicates. Was the Russian more than 22.5 degrees behind the beam? Hard to tell, if not he was the stand on vessel unless the US vessel was indicating it was restricted in its ability to maneuver. Since there was no collision I would guess well hear a bunch of whining from the two governments for a few days and nothing will really happen.

[Singularity]

Originally Posted by evm1024

...But then again this whole encounter and all like is are not about the rules of the road. It is more like chicken and intimidation. Who will give up power first. (for very high stakes)

Indeed. Playing stupid games trying to win stupid prizes.

[Breaking Waves]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVXxTS2f8CE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=C5D5H0nlw54

The Russians are claiming it was a crossing situation and that USA was give way. The Americans are claiming the Russians were overtaking and were give way.

[letsgetsailing3]

International ‘Rules of the Road’ vs. Naval Operation procedures

Actually, the International rules of the road and the US Naval Operations were in agreement here, and the Russians are full of crap.



CBS News covered this pretty well:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4_jwqFJYB0

[El Pinguino]

Whoever was in the right was also in the wrong.......

I would have thought USN standing orders would now say ' give all ships a wide berth'..slow learners maybe...

The word 'brinksmanship' comes to mind...

[evm1024]

This is a game of chicken but it is being played by Trump and Putin.

[Snore]

Originally Posted by evm1024

This is a game of chicken but it is being played by Trump and Putin.

Nice try to politicize. Unless Donnie or Vlad were on the bridge your comment is irrelevant

[Breaking Waves]

Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3

Actually, the International rules of the road and the US Naval Operations were in agreement here, and the Russians are full of crap.

With the restricted to maneuver 'theory' . . .

Technically only if the US vessel was flying the restricted day shapes: (ii) two balls or similar shapes in a vertical line where they can best be seen;

I can't tell from any of the photos - can anyone else see them?

The Pacific fleet's understanding of colreg details has been rather, let's say, spotty - so I would certainly not be surprised if they were not flying day shapes.

But this incident is not really about colregs. It is a power game about who blinks first.

[evm1024]

Originally Posted by Snore

Nice try to politicize. Unless Donnie or Vlad were on the bridge your comment is irrelevant

Hardly. It is exactly to the point. That Trump and Putin were not at the help has nothing to do with it. Politics? How mundane. Try Global Posturing.

Warships do not come into contact without policy decisions made much higher than the captain of the ships.

[jmorrison146]

To me, this is the photo that tells the tale. The Russians approach at a relatively higher speed from the starboard quarter (overtaking) then parallel the USN ship's course, passing her on the starboard side. As the Russian comes abeam the bow of the USN ship, I suspect the USN ship maintains course but backs down hard in case the Russian comes farther left, crossing his bow. Clearly intimidation and an attempt to provoke an incident.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by jmorrison146

Attachment 193501

To me, this is the photo that tells the tale. The Russians approach at a relatively higher speed from the starboard quarter (overtaking) then parallel the USN ship's course, passing her on the starboard side. As the Russian comes abeam the bow of the USN ship, I suspect the USN ship maintains course but backs down hard in case the Russian comes farther left, crossing his bow. Clearly intimidation and an attempt to provoke an incident.

That would be true if the USN warship were stationary. Since the USN vessel was moving as well, what would have been the relative positions/bearings of the two vessels one minute earlier?

[Breaking Waves]

Originally Posted by jmorrison146

The Russians approach at a relatively higher speed from the starboard quarter (overtaking) then parallel the USN ship's course, passing her on the starboard side.

This is not definitive, because the photo angle is not perfect, and one of the wakes is less clear . . . . but to be 'overtaking' this angle would have to be less than 67.5 degrees (eg "more than 22.5 degrees abaft her beam,"). From this photo, it actually looks like a crossing situation with USA give way.



All the information offered from both sides so far is 'just propaganda'. And both these governments/militaries have a recent history of being hmmm less than forthright about the truth.

If the Navy really wanted to 'prove their case' here they surely could - publish their radar log* - this (the nav radar) is bog standard technology so would not reveal any 'secrets'. And if they are claiming 'restricted' a photo from deck or helo showing the restricted day symbols being displayed.

*assuming their collision radar was working, which it was not on, for example, the Fitzgerald.